Karst - Science topic

The increase in electrical conductance (EC) of karst spring water during rainfall is primarily due to the dilution of contaminants, enhanced groundwater recharge, and surface runoff carrying additional minerals.

My suggestion for you dear colleague Vergara- contact via Reserch Gate with Roman Ozimec PhD (Slovenia) and Lada Lukić Bilela (Sarajevo University -Bosnia and Herzegovina).

Nest wishes

Alen Lepirica

Thank you all for your very useful answers. Video on the Jordanian shore of the Dead Sea . Najib Abou Karaki

I found the data here https://www.whymap.org/whymap/EN/Maps_Data/Wokam/wokam_node_en.html.

If anyone finds latest available data please share.

Thanks

Classification in a top-down hierarchy

1. Calcareous freshwater limestones (in a cave)

2.Speleothems

3.Stalagmatites

3a cone-shaped on 3b platy

It depends upon your focal discipline. As a geologist I would mention the site first (speleothem), as a petrographer and mineralogist I used to call the compositional parameters (1) first.

HGD

If the electrolysis with iron gaphene is emplyed overall negative chared materials will migrate to the iron electrode and to the graphene electrode the graphene with pull out the anionically charged compents.

This according to your analysis is making the soils which are not naturally acid more alkaline in thei nature.

Organic material and clay are having averall negative surface charge drives thei into solution iwth water. The precence of cationic briding materials with aggregate and precipate them taking them out of solution.

Mobililizing the materials through current can unbridge the materials and in the adlaize soils the effect would be increase the alkalinity.

Thank you

Without a doubt I think it is a very interesting topic

Thanks for responding, but I mean are there new ways to study karst?

Check this one:

You may take a look at AnnAGNPS model

I don’t know much about Thomas Aley since I left Missouri, but he did some amazing studies in Karst hydrology in Missouri Ozarks and probably elsewhere using fluorescent dyes. He developed an extended paper with a title of approximately Water Tracers Cookbook. His work as I remember used fluorescein and activated charcoal packets to collect the dye through time. Fluorescein apparently does not break down much in the dark of karst underground streams. One or more of his studies found dye response beyond the surface hydrology boundaries. I am not sure if he used the tracers you have special interest in. More specifics on Aley — https://www.ozarkundergroundlab.com/assets/thomas-aley-resume.pdf

This may be an all-embracing classification scheme for industrial minerals

Thank you all so much!

Best regards,

Ivona

Hallo, I would like to know better lithological-stratigraphic characteristics and local karst. The area is name BZYB. I have found some informations yet, like the map in attach, it is interesting

I agree with Prof. Bonacci. The point to note is the use of the term "Karst", which points to the geologic media. Hence, hydrology and hydrogeology in this sense are synonymous. Similarly, for a karst system with active variable area hydrology, surface and groundwater systems work as an integrated system and are inseparable. Consequently, there is no distinction from a systems view between surface and groundwater.

Dear Dr. Jacobson,

There are speleothems in tomb TT 33 (mainly in room XIII), located on the west bank of Luxor (Asasif necropolis), dated to the 7th Century BC.

- Some speleothems can be distinguished on this photo (ceiling) :

- Maps of the tomb :

- Location of the tomb :

search for "TT033" : https://scgis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=cff7333a8b61461eb9d438d91c93ff61

- Geological context of the Theban Necropolis (Tarawan Chalk) :

Yours sincerely,

Isabelle Régen.

Sinkholes in carbonate rocks occur as a result of the collapse of the roof of karstic forms which develop due to the dissolution of CaCO3 in limestones or other carbonate rocks. So this is the main mechanism.

In the case of underground pipelines in urban areas these are usually placed in excavated trenches and embedded in aggregate or soil-aggregate materials compacted according to technical specifications. When a leak occurs then the underlying aggregate or soil material is gradually washed away due to the erosion and even embankments or other engineered soil can be transported by the piping of the leaking water. Thus small or larger cavities can be formed under the infrastructure (usually road pavement etc) and consequently collapse.

I hope that this points out the different mechanisms.

Dear Bayan Hussein!

This is true!

Our time series starts in 1989, so it is 30 y now.

We also measured the intraannual variation.

Most surprising are the effects of drought (2003 and 2018) on the hydrochemistry of discharge, enhancing the pH values!

I you would consider short time series, you can be mislead!

Best

Carl

In many cases, the faults, fractures or structural lines of the rocks allow a better development of the kastic environment, causing many aligned holes. As for water, it only takes up CO2 to pass to carbonic acid, to dissolve the limestone, shales and even very calcareous sandstones, over long periods of time.

There are so many variables in epikarst. The formation make up needs to be identified (what is its composition). Unweathered limestone is usually less than 2%, but once weathered it can be greater than 20%. As Mr. Chesnaux indicated 1-10 percent based on the study he suggested (by the way, the speleogenesis web site is a phenomenal resource), where as this paper by Paul Williams indicates multiple ranges including up to 40% or more.

I have never seen a true constant average that is applicable to every situation. It is all dependent on the formation itself.

If measuring from the surface, most commonly GPR and ERI are used.

I personally coded reading about binary head file. I can code it if you require

Hi.

In my opinion, Natura 2000 network has a great importance in the Canary Islands. There are some areas not protected by local laws in 1994 ("Red de Espacios Naturales de Canarias"), but they have been designed as Natura 2000 protected areas, so (at least for the moment) were saved from any important threat. In any case, it's true that some Natura 2000 protected sites are under different types of threats, like new tourist complexes in the surroundings, increasing human presence, alien predators of local fauna (mainly cats and rats), invasive alien plants, etc. One of the main problems in the management of such areas is the low degree of surveillance or wardening inside them, mainly in coastal sites (the situation is much better in the forests), as we have an important proportion of our territory under legal protection and is necessary to have more people working in the protected areas.

This may help for tectonic portion of S. Urals (paper link attached below)

Try to read papers which cite this paper, and that should help as well.

Have a great time,

Regards

Thank you for taking the trouble to help me.I do appreciate it. My email is jafarihas@ yahoo.com. Thank you for all your assistance.

The geometry of these features indicates that they probably formed before the section was tilted but there seems to be no clearly defined surface and there is some sort of disturbance (?collapse) in the rocks above. More evidence is required, this image is not enough. You have a real problem if the entire succession is turbidites!

This paper may be helpfull:

Best regards

Vit

The main ptoblem is called equifinality. A depression can be shaped by many different processes such as karst, thermokarst, volcanic, impact ,anthropic, water sapping, ect.

You have to observ the morphological and geological context to focus the processes and therefore the landform.

Mainly by sorption/desorption reactions as well as chemical complexion with inorganic and organic ligands and redox reactions.

Dear Mushtaq, thanks a lot  for the link, we had already.

Thanks

Juan

Soluble / karstified rocks are calcareous rocks (limestone, dolomite, marble, chalk, and marl), sulphate rocks (gypsum, anhydrite), salts (halite, sylvinite).

All other cases of rocks “dissolution’ belong to the pseudokarst phenomena.

Two main types of karst: hypogenic (rocks soluted by artesian water) and epigenic (rocks soluted by meteoric water).

My suggestion would be to use both hydroponic systems and protected cultivation which will avoid many limitations provided that water would not be a great limitation, and as Moyin indicated, pasture/rangeland and mixed farming methods. Both pasture/rangelands would catch up overtime and the soil reclamation will take place. That would pave the way for adopting other crop-based farming with specific location and condition tolerant species.  Forestry with a combination of leguminous and non-leguminous tree species would also be a sustainable approach to bring the land back to productive status. 

Dear Joseph,

I know of no one  publshing an article concerning using 222Rn to estimate/calculate the volume of a karst system.  

One probable problem for not using this method immediately comes to mind.  Its the specific gravity of 222Rn vs that of air ( ~29).  As you can see, by the difference between these two numbers, your Rn atoms would act as if they were small, lead, B.B's  They'd sink thru the air column like small rocks.

Even CO_2, with a molecular weight of but 44, quickly settles and layers along the floor of caves.  Thus, we get a very few caves - containing "Bad Air".  222Rn would settle even faster.

- - - - -

Instead, you can calculate the volume of Karst systems - using gravity waves, diurnals, and last using the High/Low barometric pressure cells that cross over the U.S.A.

Gravity waves, in the atmosphere, tend to be caused by the Jet Stream, or major storms  These are low amplitude pressure waves - having a short period normally about 10 to 60 seconds long.  It takes a good micro-barometer, with a detection capacity of from 0.01 to 0.1 mm Hg, to catch and measure them.  An article on how to make a home made "Speleobarometer" was publised in the National Speleological Socities "Bulletin" about 1955-58.  

I used the data from that article - to calculate the minimum volume of Breathing Cave, Va. As I remember, the cave has a barometric volume somewhere between 20 -40 million cubic feet.  Gravity waves cycle, but they are not repeatable.  They vary in both amplitude and also period length - shiftying character even as often as every half cycle.

The diurnal is a longer pressure event - caused by the sun heating the land and atmosphere, during the day.  This heat expands the atmosphere, and lowers the barometric pressure by several mm of Hg.  Then, when the sun sets, the land and atmosphere cool off - causing the atmosphere to contract and increase in pressure.

At Lechuguilla Cave, N.M. this effect generated barometric cave winds of +/- 10-15 mph.  ... in roughly a 24-hr cycle.  Using the Ideal gas law, I calculated that Lechuguilla Cave had a minimum volume of 1.5 Billion cubic feet.

Lechuguilla Cave, though, responds much better and stronger - to the High and Low pressure cells that move across New Mexico.  I put together an expedition to measure the cave responding to these deeper, stronger pressure cycles.  

Lechuguilla Cave initially was measured sucking in at 43 mph.  The barometric wind then slowed, stalled, and reversed direction blowing out.  It blew out for 84 hours before slowing, nulling and once again reversing.  During that time the average wind velocity blowing out was 33 mph.  (It hit a peak velocity blowing out at over 49 mph.)

Using the Ideal Gas Law, Lechuguilla Cave has a minimum Karst system volume of 3.2 billion cubic feet.  By using its nominal 200 square feet of cross section - of its 'Halls", this cave could be as long as 2,400 miles.  Currently Lechuguilla is the 7'th longest surveyed cave in the World - at 138.3 miles in surveyed length.  (www.caverbob.com/wlong.htm)  Its calculated to be hidden within 45-square miles of land.

The largest Karst cave system currently known is - "The Black Hills Cave System" of South Dakota.  This cave system is believed to 'ring' the Black Hills anticline uplift, hidden within the Pahasapa Limestone.  The southern section has two entrances - lying within Wind Cave National Park, and Jewel Cave National Monument.  (Herb Conn, "Barometric Cave Winds of Wind and Jewel Cave" published about 1966 in the National Speleological Society Bulletin".)

These two entrances lie 25 miles apart.  The minimum volume of this southern section of Karst System is 4.5 billion cubic feet.  It is estimated now that the cave surveyors of these two caves have surveyed but 3% or so of the entire cave.  Jewel Cave, with a current surveyed length of 181.89 miles - is the 3'rd longest surveyed cave in the World; while Wind Cave, with a current surveyed cave length of 142.75 miles - is the 6'th longest surveyed cave in the World. Thus, this section of the cave system could be over 7,000 miles long, underlying 145-square miles of Minnelusa Sandstone caprock.

- - - - - -

Outside the U.S.A, the only other place I know of that have caves with measurable barometric winds - are those in S.W. Australia, East of Perth.  The "Aussies" call them, "Barometric Breathers".  Some of these caves have very strong cave winds - but it appears to result more from having a  "very porous" limestone.   

-Bruce Zerr

Director

Tennessee Cave Survey

Dear Wilbert,

Contact the International Union of Conservation of Nature  (IUCN)

You can contact more precisely Mrs Jay ANDERSON at : caveskarst.iucn@gmail.com

With my best regards

Prof. Bachir ACHOUR

Pierre,

Have a look at this search link

Drill and pressure grout

Bonjour,

En espérant que votre question soit toujours d'actualité... Voici ce qu je peux répondre pour alimenter le débat.

Est-il possible de corréler l'existence de karsts profonds jurassiens à la crise de salinité messinienne ?

Pour répondre à cette question, il nous faudrait connaitre entre autre 1/ la profondeur à laquelle ont été identités ces karsts et 2/ la profondeur d'incision du canyon du Rhône et de ses affluents à de telles latitudes. En lisant la réponse formulée par M Bakalowicz je me rends compte que les impacts de l’événement messinien sont encore assez mal compris. En effet, la vague d'érosion régressive provoqué par le Rhône ne s'est jamais arrêtée au niveau de la localité de Lyon mais est allée bien au delà (jusqu'en Suisse selon G. Clauzon). En revanche, c'est la transgression méditerranéenne au lendemain du refooding qui s'est stoppée au sud de Lyon. Cet amalgame est souvent commis, celui d'assimiler la surface d'érosion immergée au lendemain de la crise à l'érosion totale provoquée par le réseau hydrographique. 

A ma connaissance, peu ou pas d'études ont été réalisées dans cette partie du territoire sur la profondeur exacte de l'incision messinienne, ce qui laisse une partie de la question ouverte.

Concernant, la corrélation de la formation de ces karsts avec un paléo-niveau niveau de base (tel que le fond d'un canyon messinien), il nous faut disposer de davantage d'informations, notamment sur la géométrie de ces objets. En effet, la mise en place d'un karst profond en rapport avec un niveau de base déprimé (comme se fût le cas au Messinien dans la partie aval de la vallée du Rhône) répond à une structuration d'un karst dit "épigène" sous l'influence d'un gradient topographique. Ce type de réseau à une signature morphologique particulière correspondant à un drainage des eaux d'infiltration vers un point d'émergence, selon un dispositif de drains plus ou moins bien hiérarchisés d'amont vers l'aval.

La seule découverte de karsts profonds très en contre bas du niveau actuel des vallées ne peut suffire à envisager des périodes durant lesquelles le niveau de base fût très en dessous de l'actuel. En effet, certains processus de cavernement peuvent être tout ou partie découplés de l'influence du niveau de base, c'est notamment le cas des karsts dits "hypogènes"  ou encore des phénomènes de fantomisation des carbonates pouvant atteindre plusieurs centaines de m de profondeur sous le niveau de base (voir à ce sujet les travaux de l'école Belge dirigée par Quinif).

Donc, en ce qui me concerne et bien qu'étant un fervent défenseur du modèle profond promu par Hsü et al. 1970 et de ses conséquences morphologiques, la découverte de karsts profonds peut faire référence à plusieurs processus de karstification qu'il convient de soumettre aux données disponibles.

En résumé : 

- Oui, les impacts morphologiques de la crise de salinité ont largement dépassés la latitude du Jura. Je ne connais pas en revanche de travaux autres que ceux de Gorges Clauzon dans la région (qui sont toutefois relativement succincts).

- La présence de karsts profonds peut renvoyer à plusieurs processus. Sans informations supplémentaires (nature des remplissages...), il me semble difficile de discriminer le processus ayant été en jeu.

Enfin, si vous avez des informations supplémentaires, je serai très intéressé d'en rediscuter !

Cordialement, L Mocochain

 THANK YOU DEAR FREIND SO YOU MEAN HYDROCHEMICAL SIMULATION BY SATURATION INDEX CALCULATION M

measuring of solubility without temprature and thermodynamics parameter in karst rocks

Regards

Massih

Like Mary, I also agree with Marcelo and Kendra. Bats could provide nutrients for cave animals but that is exclusively for those coprophagous. If the cave is disturbed, the bats could easily move from one location to another, they could easily find new suitable cave habitats. Invertebrates, which dominated the subterranean ecosystem, have limited movement, most especially the stygobitic animals (cave-obligate aquatic species). They are very sensitive even to slight cave disturbance therefore they could be affected very easily. Moreover, endemism of this stygobites are very high. So considering everything, stygobites are overall more prone to extinction. Cheers!

Most of the methods re geophysical but the question appears about hydro-chemical data test. Very simple to say please look to the groundwater properties in the karst reservoir, you will find number of standard test methods explained .

Good luck. I'd be interested to hear if you find a definition

You should work with at least 3 techniques to obtain a better picture of the ant biodiversity: pitfalls + active research at different hours (along a transect or for a determined time  - 1 hour for example) + baits (when bait and active research are done at the same time - you can know the structure of your ant community - DOMINANCE HIERARCHIES). pitfalls are very important because they catch ants that active when you are not in the site - for example at night.  I use also the same 3 techniques on trees and bushes to collect also the arboreal ants or the ants that are climb on trees. Now I always use between 3 to 6 techniques. As a result when comparing different habitats in the karst you have a best appreciation of the ant community structure. I send you an example of my last publication

You should define indicators of this development.

Then you should look to the impact of the lithology on:

macroscopic features (karren, caves, etc...) by field investigation. Counting base on indicators (density of karren, caves) according to the lithology (at soil surface 2D but also in 3d on outcrop).

The problem is the importance of the geological structure, numbers of joints, faults, folding...

microscopic features (thin section), defining the lithology precisely (% calcite vs dolomite%).

Finaklly, recent studies have shown that karts development take place at certain beds called related to a restricted number of so called inception horizons. An inception horizon is a part of a rock succession that is particularly susceptible to the

development of karst conduits because of physical, lithological or chemical deviation from the predominant carbonate facies within the limestone sequence (Filipponi et al, 2009).

Marco Filipponi, Pierre-Yves Jeannin, Laurent Tacher, Evidence of inception horizons in karst conduit networks, Geomorphology, Volume 106, Issues 1–2, 1 May 2009, Pages 86-99, ISSN 0169-555X, http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.geomorph.2008.09.010.

(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169555X08004194)

Hi,

material seems to be sandy and probably represent a neogene tidal deposit.

Those features are  biogenic and probably made by animals.

You should ask in the topic: Ichology, Sedimentology

You might also want to find out why the gypsum is below the limestone.

Gypsum is the byproduct when limestone is attacked by sulfuric acid, and the

carbonate ion is replaced by the sulfate ion. ( Calcium carbonate becomes

calcium sulfate in the presence of hydrogen sulfide gas and water.

Perhaps the limestone is being attacked in place from the bottom upward

by H2S from below.

Calcite is more soluble that dolomite. A limestone-dolomite rock may become porous. In dolomitie places karrens are smooth (looking like elephant skin ) while they are sharpen in pure limestone zones. Erosion in dolomitic karsts produces sand that fills in the sinkholes and the caves. The mixing between dolomite sand and clay produces a sediment that may partially block the ground water circulations

The non-uniformity and heterogeneity of the geological, geographical, and therefore hydrogeological settings account for the large diversity of karst types identified over the world. As we know, the rocks have different hydrogeological behaviors as a result of factors that controlling karstification in the extending area such as lithostratigraphy, energy gradient, tectonic activity, erosion base, and climate change, followed by a number of other factors. The tectonic activity is the one of the major factor in karstification. As you know, the primary porosity is very low in carbonate rocks. The discontinuities (fault plane, fracture system, etc.) comprise secondary porosity in these rocks. Thus, secondary porosity host presences of water and create suitable pathway for water circulation in carbonate rocks. I think that it is important to initiation of karstification. You should keep in mind other factors in evaluation of karst.

Dear Majid, firstly, the bedding planes are not fractures, anyhow the fractures like joints and faults that connected with bedding planes can play a major role in enlargement and triggering the karstification, you can see my puplications about this subject on the researchgate

Where is this aquifer? How large is it? On what scale do you work?

Do you not have structural maps or structural contour maps showing the geometry of the underlying aquitard? This is what we mostly use here in Palestine, on a scale of several hundred to over 1000km2. In the absence of monitoring wells near the groundwater divide this is our best tool for a relatively good approximation. For your water balance you will need to have good data on spring flow and well abstractions anyway, no?

And in any case, the margin of error of actual evapotranspiration in your soil moisture balance will outweigh by far the inaccuracies in determining your watershed...

In my view, the above references on Dead Sea sinkholes (Dead Sea coast -400m bsl) seem not to have much to do with determining your problem, since they are dozens of kilometres away and over a thousand metres below the next water divide of that (Eastern Mountain) aquifer (Hebron, >1000m asl)...

Many interesting minerals are found in caves in addition to the calcite which forms the major features. Aragonite, a calcium carbonate mineral similar to calcite but not as common, often occurs in intricate needles known as anthodites. Gypsum (calcium sulfate) and related calcium sulfate minerals are next to calcite in abundance. Some caves, although they are developed in limestone, have extensive passages lined with fine, curling growths of gypsum flowers. In other caves, selenite (a less common variety of gypsum) forms long transparent rods or nests of fibrous crystals. Sulfates of sodium and magnesium are also found in caves, although they are less conspicuous than gypsum. Iron minerals in the form of oxides (limonite) and hydroxide (goethite) occur in caves and in some places form stalactites. Manganese minerals in caves are commonly present as thin, sooty coatings on walls and ceilings and in earth fills. Nitrocalcite (calcium nitrate) is abundant in earth fills in many caves, but individual fragments are generally microscopic. Barite (barium sulfate) and celestite (strontium sulfate) also occur in earth fills. In some solution caves, clay minerals exist in relatively pure forms; these include the less common varieties attapulgite and endellite.

In deep caves encountered during mining operations, a number of ore minerals have been found in the decorative wall draperies. Most common are azurite and malachite (forms of copper carbonate). About 50 other minerals also have been reported in cave deposits.

You may build your own code. This paper may help,

Colleagues, thank you very much for your help!

I never came across any such study so far that reveals the developmental stages of speleothem formation from start to end. To answer such a question will need continuous cave monitoring. Moreover, there are some works which show, how the morphology and layering pattern can be affected by different climatic events or phases. A latest paper by one of my collaborators has added a new dimension to speleothem science and partly answers your query.

Cheers

Mahjoor

Karst is very difficult to study if you don't have a good knowledge of the aquifer structure. The discharge chronicles are often uncomplete as low discharges and floods are usually not measured. It is also very difficult to know all the water outlets

Some karst systems have several perennial or temporary springs. Another problem is the existence of deep leaks and the possibility to have communications with other aquifers (karst or alluvial ones). The behavior may be very different between high and low water periods.

Thus discharge time series from a spring only give data on part of the aquifer.

For modelling, in addition to the previously described softwares, you may also try VENSIM. You create different reservoirs (rain fall, epikarst, drains, ...) and affect filling and emptying formulas to each of them. It is not the worse one. Good luck...

I think climate induced chemical weathering of the overlying soil may be an important reason in natrural situation. If there are heave meta pollutions in the surrounding environment, they may be recorded in speleothems. Recently, we found a stalagmite from central China have recorded the Pb pollution in the environment because of Lead mining process during the last 30 years in this area.

This one is quite famous and not unpractical:

Brutsaert, W., and J. L. Nieber (1977), Regionalized drought flow hydrographs from a mature glaciated plateau, Water Resour. Res., 13(3), 637–643, doi:10.1029/WR013i003p00637.

I just made a small video clip about this paper for my students, not sure if it helps: