Engaging Men and Boys in Gender Justice Through Pro-Feminist Podcasts: Potential Benefits, Challenges, and Risks

Abstract

This article explores pro-feminist podcasting as an emergent approach to engaging men and boys in gender justice. In recent years, an increasing number of podcasts have surfaced which implicitly or explicitly espouse pro-feminist praxis. However, scholarship in this area remains underexamined. This article seeks to move the literature forward by 1) situating pro-feminist podcasting within the wider multi-disciplinary literatures on critical podcasting pedagogies; 2) sharing examples from the current landscape of English-language pro-feminist podcasts; and 3) discussing the potential benefits, challenges, and risks of this approach. In doing so, this article considers how pro-feminist podcasts have the potential to expand men’s engagement efforts to wider audiences, provide new accessible entry points, and help facilitate ways to bring together and mobilise groups of pro-feminist men. However, there are several challenges and tensions involved in pro-feminist podcasting - as is the case with other forms of engaging men and pro-feminist allyship - which demonstrate that this work should be undertaken with care, ongoing reflexivity, and accountability. Overall, this article seeks to start a conversation about the potential of podcasting in the field of engaging men and boys and to draw attention to the need for further work and research in this area.

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Engaging Men and Boys in Gender Justice Through Pro-
Feminist Podcasts: Potential Benefits, Challenges, and Risks
William W. McInerney1, Stephen R. Burrell2,
1) London School of Economics, UK
2) Durham University, UK
Date of publication: June 21st, 2023
Edition period: February 2023 – June 2023
To cite this article: McInerney, W.W & Burrell, S.R. (2023). Engaging Men
and Boys in Gender Justice Through Pro-Feminist Podcasts: Potential
Benefits, Challenges, and Risks,Masculinities and Social Change 12 (2), 160-
183 https://doi.org/10.17583/MCS.2023.10618
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MCS – Masculinities and Social Change Vol. 12 No. 3 June 2023 pp.
160-183
2023 Hipatia Press
ISSN: 2014-3605
DOI: 10.17583/MCS.2023.10618
Engaging Men and Boys in Gender Justice
Through Pro-Feminist Podcasts: Potential
Benefits, Challenges, and Risks
William W. McInerney Stephen R. Burrell
London School of Economics Durham University
Abstract
This article explores pro-feminist podcasting as an emergent approach to
engaging men and boys in gender justice. In recent years, an increasing
number of podcasts have surfaced which implicitly or explicitly espouse pro-
feminist praxis. However, scholarship in this area remains underexamined.
This article seeks to move the literature forward by 1) situating pro-feminist
podcasting within the wider multi-disciplinary literatures on critical
podcasting pedagogies; 2) sharing examples from the current landscape of
English-language pro-feminist podcasts; and 3) discussing the potential
benefits, challenges, and risks of this approach. In doing so, this article
considers how pro-feminist podcasts have the potential to expand men’s
engagement efforts to wider audiences, provide new accessible entry points,
and help facilitate ways to bring together and mobilise groups of pro-feminist
men. However, there are several challenges and tensions involved in pro-
feminist podcasting - as is the case with other forms of engaging men and pro-
feminist allyship - which demonstrate that this work should be undertaken
with care, ongoing reflexivity, and accountability. Overall, this article seeks
to start a conversation about the potential of podcasting in the field of
engaging men and boys and to draw attention to the need for further work and
research in this area.
Keywords: pro-feminism, podcasts, engaging men and boys, men and
masculinities, gender equality

MCS – Masculinities and Social Change Vol. 12 No. 3 June 2023 pp.
160-183
2023 Hipatia Press
ISSN: 2014-3605
DOI: 10.17583/MCS.2023.10618
Involucrarse a Hombres y Niños en la Justicia de
Género a través de Podcasts Profeministas:
Posibles Beneficios, Desafíos y Riesgo
William W. McInerney Stephen R. Burrell
London School of Economics Durham University
Resumen
Este artículo explora los podcasts profeministas como un enfoque emergente
para involucrarse a hombres y niños en la justicia de género. En los últimos
años, ha surgido un número cada vez mayor de podcasts que adoptan implícita
o explícitamente la praxis profeminista. Sin embargo, la erudición en esta área
sigue siendo poco examinada. Este artículo busca hacer avanzar la literatura
al 1) situar el podcasting profeminista dentro de las literaturas
multidisciplinarias más amplias sobre las pedagogías críticas del podcasting;
2) compartir ejemplos del panorama actual de podcasts profeministas en
inglés; y 3) discutir los posibles beneficios, desafíos y riesgos de este enfoque.
Al hacerlo, este artículo considera cómo los podcasts profeministas tienen el
potencial de expandir los esfuerzos de participación de los hombres a
audiencias más amplias, proporcionar nuevos puntos de entrada accesibles y
ayudar a facilitar formas de reunir y movilizar grupos de hombres
profeministas. Sin embargo, existen varios desafíos y tensiones involucrados
en el podcasting profeminista, como es el caso de otras formas de involucrarse
a los hombres y la alianza profeminista, que demuestran que este trabajo debe
realizarse con cuidado, reflexividad constante y responsabilidad. En general,
este artículo busca iniciar una conversación sobre el potencial de los podcasts
en el campo de involucrarse a hombres y niños y llamar la atención sobre la
necesidad de más trabajo e investigación en esta área.
Palabras clave: profeminismo, podcasts, involucrarse a hombres y niños,
hombres y masculinidades, igualdad de gén

MCS – Masculinities and Social Change, 12(2) 162
his article explores the potential of pro-feminist podcasts as a
form of engaging men and boys in gender justice, otherwise
referred to simply as ‘engaging men’. The growing field of
engaging men includes diverse forms of activism, scholarship,
and practice working to engage, educate, organize, and mobilize men and boys
on issues including violence prevention, sexual and reproductive health and
rights, fatherhood and care work, and health and wellbeing (Funk, 2018; Van
Der Gaag, 2014). Not all engaging men work is explicitly pro-feminist.
However, for this article we focus on efforts that align with what Flood (2019)
outlines as the three core principles of engaging men. The work must be: 1)
feminist: intended to transform gender inequalities; 2) committed to
enhancing boys’ and men’s lives; and 3) intersectional: addressing diversities
and inequalities among men. Research shows that some efforts at engaging
men can support positive changes in men towards gender equality, for
example, by shifting violence-supportive attitudes and behaviours (Foley et
al. 2015; Jewkes et al., 2015). However, men’s direct and structural violence
remains a severe and systemic problem around the world (WHO, 2021), and
the empirical evidence on efforts to engage men is mixed overall (Flood,
2019). As a result, scholars and practitioners continue to advocate for more
creative, impactful, and accountable approaches to working with men (Casey
et al., 2013; Macomber, 2015; Pease, 2017; Westmarland et al., 2021). This
article explores how podcasting, and in particular, pro-feminist approaches,
might support such efforts.
Podcasts are an on-demand digital audio communication medium that has
steadily increased in popularity around the world over the past decade.1
Recent surveys indicate podcast listenership is growing around the world
(YouGov, 2023) with upwards of 40% of the population listening to a podcast
in the previous month in countries like the US (Pew Research Center, 2021).
Research in the US also shows trends toward more active users with weekly
podcast listenership nearly doubling in the past five years (Edison Research
& Triton Digital, 2021). As the number of podcast shows, episodes, and
listeners has grown, educators and activists have increasingly engaged with
this digital medium. First, educators and researchers have explored podcast
listening and creation as a means of learning and teaching in diverse education
T

163 McInerney & Burrell - Engaging men and boys
settings (Drew, 2017; O’Connor et al., 2020; Pegrum et al., 2015), including
as an innovative research methodology itself (Eringfeld, 2021). Second,
activists working on issues of social justice have used this intimate audio
medium to advance their causes (McHugh, 2017). At the nexus of these two
areas lies the emergence of scholarship examining critical podcasting
pedagogies and praxes. Of particular interest here is the ways in which
scholars and practitioners have explored the ‘feminist potential of podcasting’
(Richardson & Green, 2018), and podcasts as a ‘tool of resistance’ (Tiffe &
Hoffmann, 2017) within the ongoing, contested, and increasingly
technologically situated ‘new waves’ of global feminist movements (Hoydis,
2020).
Building on these ideas, there appear to be an increasing number of
podcasts available on English language podcasting platforms informed by
pro-feminist approaches to engaging men (Flood, 2020). We ground this
article in Mackay’s (2015) definition of feminism as a social movement for
women’s liberation from men’s dominance. We use the term pro-feminist to
indicate efforts by and/or for boys and men to support feminism (see Messner
et al., 2015, and Jansson & Kullberg, 2020, for a deeper examination of men’s
pro-feminism). We distinguish pro-feminist podcasts from both feminist
podcasts which address different or broader issues beyond engaging men, and
podcasts simply about men and masculinities but which lack a feminist
analysis and approach. However, it is important to make clear that boys and
men can, should, and do listen to feminist podcasts too. This article focuses
on the specifics of pro-feminist podcasts in order to examine their potential as
a complementary approach to engaging men - not as a replacement for a
feminist foundation.
Yet, while we have noticed both more potential pro-feminist podcasts in
our podcast feeds and more scholarship on podcasting emerging, academic
literature in this specific area remains minimal. Further, surveys of podcasts
users in the US (Edison Research & Triton Digital, 2021) indicate the medium
is disproportionately used by men and by young people aged 12-34. This
demographic overlaps with key gender and age groups for engaging men work
and presents an opportunity to ‘meet men where they are’ (Flood, 2019). As
the field of engaging men also continues to develop and expand, we believe
that addressing this gap could illuminate generative insights and questions for

MCS – Masculinities and Social Change, 12(2) 164
scholars and practitioners. To move the literature forward in this regard, the
goals of this article are to: 1) situate pro-feminist podcasting within the multi-
disciplinary literature on critical podcasting pedagogies; 2) share some
examples from the current landscape of English-language pro-feminist
podcasts; and 3) discuss potential benefits, challenges, and risks of this
approach as a form of pro-feminist education and engagement.
Before moving forward, we feel it is important to share our own
backgrounds and connections to the topic as authors, not least to acknowledge
the limitations of our work here. Our interest in pro-feminist podcasting stems
from our dual backgrounds as pro-feminist researchers and educators, and as
radio journalists and podcasters ourselves. William is a peace and men's
violence prevention educator and researcher and a former radio journalist and
podcast host for a National Public Radio affiliate in the United States. Stephen
is a sociology researcher focusing on men, masculinities and violence, and is
involved in gender equality work and activism, including co-hosting a pro-
feminist podcast called Now and Men since July 2021. This paper is therefore
inevitably influenced by our own experiences; however, it is not solely about
these - we have also sought to consider lessons from the literature and
engaging men field more broadly.
Lastly, we do not seek to definitively define pro-feminist podcasting, to
identify what ‘good’ examples sound like, or to claim to map all its current
diverse manifestations. Rather, this article is an introduction to the digital
media practice and a questioning of its potential to support feminist work with
boys and men. This is also specifically constrained in scope by our focus on
English language podcasting. It is important to note this limitation to our own
work, and how the same limitation operates across the field of engaging men
- disproportionately drawing attention and resources towards scholarship and
praxis in Global North, Anglophone countries like the USA and UK
(Boonzaier et al., 2021). Rather than define and declare what pro-feminist
podcasting is or should be, we hope to use this article to start a conversation
about the potential of podcasting in the field of engaging men and to draw
attention to the need for further work and research in this area in diverse global
contexts.

165 McInerney & Burrell - Engaging men and boys
Podcasting and Critical Pedagogies
There is a growing body of literature on the use of podcasts in formal and
informal learning contexts. Looking at podcasts in higher education, McGarr
(2009) divides their use into three categories along a spectrum. First, podcasts
can be substitutional. They offer students an audio copy of lectures or other
course materials that may then be accessed on demand. Second, podcasts can
be supplementary. They provide students with new learning materials. And
third, podcasts can be creative. In this case, students can interact with and
create their own podcasts as a way of applying and demonstrating their
knowledge. Thus, podcasting pedagogies can include both teacher and
student-created content and involve technology-enhanced mediums of
instruction as well as new experiential pathways to learning.
Evidence on the effectiveness of podcasting pedagogies in improving
learning engagement, accessibility, and retention is mixed (Abdous et al.,
2012; Gachago et al., 2016). The operative word in podcasting education
literature appears to be potential. Podcasting has the potential to enhance deep
student-centred learning, but it can also be used to promote passive and
teacher-centred learning (Pegrum et al., 2015). Scholars like Drew (2017)
argue the debate over whether the benefits outweigh the challenges of
podcasting in education remains unresolved in the empirical literature. As
McGarr (2009) cautioned, the use of podcasting in education is most
influenced not by its technological innovations, but by the creative ways it is
situated within wider pedagogies. Accordingly, Drew (2017) calls for a move
away from rigid ‘good practice’ templates and towards more responsive and
contextualised podcast designs for education. To that end, we now turn our
attention to how podcasting has been used with critical pedagogies before
focusing on the specific potential benefits and challenges of pro-feminist
podcasting.
Several scholars have examined the use of podcasting in critical
pedagogical contexts as a new way to share knowledge with students, and an
opportunity for students to create and disseminate their own critical
perspectives. Bejtullahu et al. (2018) discuss how creative podcasting in peace
and conflict studies opens up a collaborative learning process, a “mise-en-

MCS – Masculinities and Social Change, 12(2) 166
scénce” of “creative choices and affects” to pedagogically enrich learning
(p.1). Similarly optimistic on podcasting’s critical potential, Lewis et al.
(2021) outline how what they call sociological podcasting “has the capacity
to offer a small but effective intervention in support of radical, creative and
informative knowledge production” by acting as a form of public sociology
moving beyond the confines of the written word in ways that are more
accessible, political, and uplifting (p. 95). Putting some of these ideas into
classroom practice, Ferrer et al. (2020) conducted a study assessing the
viability and impact of creative podcasting as a transformative learning
technique to promote social justice practice for social work students. Findings
show students “began to develop their professional and generalist social work
identity, engaged in critical reflective practice, and made links between
structural and experiential issues related to social policy and social justice” (p.
850).
Anti-racist scholarship has also explored podcasting outside of traditional
classrooms - looking at the ways podcasts can increase access to critical
information whilst operating as a “metaphorical curriculum for blackness”
and as a counter-space where marginalized identities build community and
resistance (Fox et al., 2020, p. 299). For example, Vrikki and Malik’s (2019)
research with Black and Asian UK podcasters found podcasts offer emergent
spaces for those at the margins “for voicing the self and community” (p. 285).
In feminist scholarship on this topic, podcasting has been similarly written
about as offering marginalized voices a tool for resistance (Tiffe & Hoffman,
2017) and for building intimate community and connection (Hoydis, 2020).
Richardson and Green (2018) looked at a case study of podcasts as a digital
learning opportunity that pushes feminist knowledge beyond the margins of
the written word in university teaching and scholarship contexts. In doing so,
they argue that particularly for women, “the sound of our voices opens sites
of resistance, communication, collaboration, and critique” (p. 289).
However, the scholars cited here also make clear that critical podcasting is
not a feminist utopia (Tiffe & Hoffman, 2017) and podcasts are very much
“part of a history of media-making linked to historical and ongoing systems
of oppression.” (Vrikki & Malkik, 2019, p. 286). For example, Richardson
and Green (2018) caution that the digital context of podcasting brings the
practice into proximity with the abundance of violent patriarchal virtual

167 McInerney & Burrell - Engaging men and boys
communities targeting harassment towards women and gender minorities
online. Further, there are questions about who is excluded from this digital
medium, which is predominantly recorded in the English language, often
lacking written transcripts for those in the Deaf community, and which
assumes audiences have reliable and sustained online access (Richardson &
Green, 2018; Lewis et al., 2021). While scholars like Lewis et al. (2021)
remain unambiguously hopeful in podcasting’s potential as a catalyst and
convener for social change, they also caution that it should be a complement,
not a substitute or shortcut, for this. They write that podcasting’s “work of
contesting local and global inequalities cannot be positioned as something
which replaces, or is as radical as, activism or direct action against those in
power.” (Lewis et al., 2021, p. 97).
Our review of podcasting literature reveals multiple ways this emergent
digital media has been used to promote learning in traditional and non-
traditional learning contexts, and that the current empirical scholarship in this
area shows mixed evidence overall. This review has also shown how critical
scholars in fields ranging from Peace and Conflict Studies, to Sociology, to
Gender and Critical Race Studies have explored podcasting as an intimate and
creative way to effectively and affectively engage learners, amplify voices,
and build communities of resistance for marginalised groups. However, it is
also clear that such work comes with challenges and risks. This article now
seeks to explore the potential of podcasting in the complementary field of pro-
feminism. Pro-Feminist Podcast Landscape
In this section we introduce the pro-feminist podcasting landscape within the
wider context of podcasts about men and masculinities. In May 2022, we
reviewed three of the most popular English language podcast platforms, Apple
Podcasts, Spotify, and Google Podcasts, using relevant keyword searches
(e.g., men, masculinity, masculinities, manhood, men and feminism, pro-
feminism). Additionally, we reviewed a curated list of podcasts about men
and masculinities on the pro-feminist website, XYonline (Flood, 2020).
However, this is not a systematic review representative of all current podcasts
in this area. The purpose of this review is to show some of the diverse array

MCS – Masculinities and Social Change, 12(2) 168
of podcasts about men and masculinities, with specific focus on examples
which might be considered pro-feminist.
Searches on major platforms for podcasts about men and masculinities
produced large volumes of results – many of which explicitly or implicitly did
not appear to align with or focus on pro-feminist ideas and approaches
relevant to engaging men. Some of the more general podcasts focused on men
and masculinities in more individualised, depoliticised or psychologised
ways, and mirrored the categories Lingard and Douglas (1999) used to
describe men’s responses to feminism: as anti-feminist, men’s rights activism,
masculinity therapy/mythopoetic, and pro-feminist. While a deeper
examination of all anti- and non-feminist podcasts on men and masculinities
is beyond the scope of our work here, it is important to note their proliferation
in the digital media space. Further research is needed to examine these
approaches within the context of rising gendered violence online and the
increasingly digitized backlash to feminism (Ging, 2019).
Our focus in this article is on podcasts from our searches which directly or
indirectly engaged with pro-feminist ideas. While there is no exact formula or
template for what constitutes pro-feminism within a podcast, we sought out
examples which explicitly included feminist or pro-feminist language in their
descriptions or that included episodes which explored ideas such as promoting
gender equality with men, critical examinations of men’s violences and
privileges, the connections between masculinities and violence, intersectional
understandings of masculinities, the impact of patriarchy and structural
violences, and various forms of alternative masculinities such as ‘healthy’ or
‘non-violent’ masculinities. Our searches reveal what appears to be a growing
number of podcasts covering these areas. Flood’s (2020) XYonline list alone
includes over 30 examples of podcasts which engage these subjects to varying
degrees.
Within the pro-feminist podcasts we found and listened to there are two
main categories. First, there were podcast series which specialised solely on
pro-feminist explorations of men and masculinity. Some of these focused on
a specific context, group, or target audience. For example, What’s A Man
addresses masculinities and feminism in the Indian context and discusses
“power and love in different aspects of men’s lives in homes, schools, and
offices”. Let’s Talk Bruh examines new visions of Black masculinities in the

169 McInerney & Burrell - Engaging men and boys
US, with conversations about issues including mental health, Black male
privilege, vulnerability, Black women’s experiences of patriarchy, friendship,
sex, and more. The Canada-based Breaking the Boy Code specifically
examines the inner lives of boys, with each episode based around a boy
describing a single experience, “interwoven with the perspectives of experts
and leaders in progressive masculinity”.2
Others focus broadly on issues around engaging men. One of the most
well-known examples of this is The Man Enough Podcast, which is hosted by
US pro-feminist actor and director Justin Baldoni, author and journalist Liz
Plank, and musician and producer Jamey Heath. It releases new episodes once
per week, often involving conversations with celebrity guests “about what we
need to do to change our minds and actions to create a more connected, just
world”, and even has corporate sponsorship. Another example is Remaking
Manhood: The Healthy Masculinity Podcast, again based in the US, which
states that in “every episode you’ll hear honest conversations designed to
show you what breaking out of the man box can look like and feel like”. Both
podcasts are built upon books authored by their respective hosts: ‘Man
Enough’ by Justin Baldoni, and ‘Remaking Manhood’ by Mark Greene. Now
and Men, the monthly UK-based podcast co-hosted by one of the authors of
this article, explores “how feminist issues are relevant to men” by
interviewing experts including scholars, practitioners, and activists. Similar to
the two aforementioned podcasts, it discusses a range of topics including
men’s violence against women, fatherhood, men’s health, militarism,
environmentalism and work with men and boys.
None of these podcasts necessarily emphasise that they are pro-feminist,
but this is nonetheless relatively clear to discern given their extensive
discussion of issues such as gender equality, male privilege, men’s violence,
and changing masculinities. By focusing predominantly on feminist issues and
perspectives, podcasts such as these can offer a deeper and more expansive
exploration of these topics for audiences who are invested in learning more. It
is also notable that all of these examples were initiated in 2021, apart from
Let’s Talk Bruh and Breaking the Boy Code, which have been running since
2018.
The second category of pro-feminist podcasts we found consists of single
episodes engaging with this subject matter as part of more general interest

MCS – Masculinities and Social Change, 12(2) 170
series. Podcasts ranging from TED Radio Hour, Fresh Air, Hidden Brain,
Football Weekly, and Big Ideas have all produced episodes or multi-part
limited series that explore men and masculinities in ways that align (perhaps
more implicitly) with pro-feminist approaches. Some shows in this category
are distributed by large media companies including The Guardian, National
Public Radio (NPR), and the Australia Broadcast Corporation. As one
example, TED Radio Hour produced a podcast episode entitled “Gender,
Power, and Fairness”, which discussed the #MeToo movement, everyday
sexism, and engaging men in gender violence prevention. This single episode
with pro-feminist content was not only distributed as a podcast by its
production companies, TED and NPR, to their large podcast audiences, but it
was also played on the over 600 radio stations in the USA and internationally
through the show’s distribution network (NPR, 2019). Single or multi-part
pro-feminist-oriented podcast episodes embedded within larger general
audience shows have less time to explore a wide array of issues like the
specialised shows in the former category. However, this approach has the
potential to reach much larger audiences and expand the pro-feminist
conversation to those who might not seek it out directly.
Our limited review of podcasts about men and masculinities has shown a
broad audio landscape, a considerable amount of which does not align with
pro-feminist approaches to engaging men. However, there do appear to be
several podcasts that explicitly and implicitly align with pro-feminist ideas;
some built around entire shows and others a single episode within more
general interest podcasts. With this broad overview in mind, we now turn to
consider the potential benefits, challenges, and risks of podcasting as a way
of engaging men.
Possible Benefits, Challenges, and Risks of Pro-Feminist Podcasting
Benefits
Podcasting presents multiple opportunities for engaging men. First of all, in
terms of expanding that engagement. Gender equality work with men and
boys is often under-resourced and only able to reach relatively small numbers
compared to the scale of the problems it seeks to address. Podcasts can
communicate with much wider populations, so have the potential to be used

171 McInerney & Burrell - Engaging men and boys
to engage with broader groups of men and boys about issues of feminism,
violence and masculinity who might not have opportunities to learn about
them elsewhere. They can provide a valuable entry point to discussions about
gender equality from which men and boys can explore further. This might be
the case for individuals encountering a show independently on their podcast
application, through social media or word of mouth, or it could apply to groups
of men and boys encouraged to listen by someone in their lives such as a
teacher, youth worker, coach, colleague, or friend.
That said, as alluded to earlier, on its own listening to podcasts may offer
a relatively superficial, passive form of engagement, rather than the kind of
ongoing, reciprocal dialogue and reflection which is likely to bring about
meaningful change (Pegrum et al., 2014). However, their conversational
format can provide a proxy for this at least, and their intimate dynamics, in
which listeners are encouraged to develop an attachment to the hosts, may
make them more relatable and impactful than other media formats (Hoydis,
2020). In addition, podcasts can provide a tool to augment and deepen
education men and boys may already be receiving about gender equality. For
instance, within work with men and boys, they can be shared with participants
as a way of furthering understandings outside of organised activities. This can
be valuable given that podcasts allow space for in-depth exploration of
different issues, especially if only limited time is available for face-to-face
engagement work. Participants could be encouraged to listen to specific
episodes before or after workshops, for instance – or to create their own as an
exercise. They can also be utilised similarly as a pedagogical tool within
educational programmes about men and masculinities in universities, schools
or colleges, as noted earlier, in substitutional, supplementary, or creative ways
(McGarr, 2009).
Podcasts can also be beneficial on a more informal basis, for individual
men seeking to advance their learning, or in community contexts, such as anti-
sexist men’s groups, where they can provide the basis for collective discussion
and exploration. They have the potential to facilitate new spaces for
engagement too, especially online and on social media platforms. Podcasts
allow for relatively high levels of audience participation with hosts and other
audience members and offer opportunities to foster virtual communities built
around the issues the podcast focuses on. They can thus provide an organic or

MCS – Masculinities and Social Change, 12(2) 172
facilitated way to bring together and mobilise groups of pro-feminist men and
build networks in the field. Podcasts therefore have exciting potential as a
mode of pro-feminist activism, offering a valuable tool for raising awareness
of specific social issues and supporting feminist political actions – perhaps
especially if traditional media is failing to give adequate attention to them
(Tiffe & Hoffman, 2017). These insights are key because as hooks (2003)
argues, the mass media all too often amplifies anti-feminist backlash and acts
as an agent of patriarchal socialisation.
We contend that pro-feminist podcasts have the potential to contribute to
transgressive cultural counterweights that highlight alternative – more
egalitarian – forms of masculinities that challenge these dominant cultural
norms. Such alternative portrayals of masculinities are vital to engaging men
in feminism (hooks, 2004). Taliep et al.’s (2017) meta-synthesis of 12
engaging men programs and 23 studies concludes, ‘the promotion of positive
forms of masculinity as an interpersonal violence prevention strategy is a
much-needed, relatively untapped approach’ (p. 2). While podcasts are by no
means the only or most powerful means of advancing more plural,
intersectional, and feminist depictions of masculinities, the recent growth of
this digital medium and the potential benefits outlined above warrant further
attention from engaging men practitioners and scholars alike.
Challenges
There are also a number of challenges posed by pro-feminist podcasting.
Perhaps the biggest of all is how to actually get men and boys to listen, akin
to the obstacle faced by work with men and boys of getting them ‘in the room’
(Casey et al., 2017). This is a problem faced by any podcast, given the wealth
of media content now available online which people only have a limited
amount of time to listen to. However, it is perhaps particularly acute for pro-
feminist podcasts – especially those seeking to reach a wider audience new to
the issues – given that men can often be reluctant and resistant to openly
engaging in potentially challenging and uncomfortable conversations about
gender (Pleasants, 2011). This is one reason why individual episodes within
wider non-related series can be particularly valuable entry points for those
who might not otherwise seek out a podcast on this topic.

173 McInerney & Burrell - Engaging men and boys
It also makes it important for podcasts to decide on the audience they are
realistically seeking and able to appeal to, to increase the chances that they
will successfully engage listeners. Targeting the podcast at men and boys in
general may have relatively little impact, given the huge range of interests and
experiences among them. Podcasts specifically aimed at men already involved
in pro-feminism can be valuable for instance, in building a sense of
community and deepening their understandings as already discussed. That
said, targeting a podcast at such a specific group also comes with limitations,
given that it involves relatively small numbers of men, and may assume a level
of prior knowledge and experience which could alienate listeners newer to the
field. Furthermore, such a focus would potentially only ‘preach to the
converted’. Indeed, this may be a limitation of pro-feminist podcasts more
broadly, that most people choosing to listen to them are likely to already be
supportive of gender equality. Given that podcasts need to be sought out, they
can contribute to deeper political polarisation in society, in which people only
listen to voices and views which they already agree with. So, there are
balances to be struck in appealing to different audiences – and particular
challenges around gaining the attention of men and boys unfamiliar with
feminist ideas. In addition, it is important to recognise that many women are
involved in work and research around men and masculinities too, so it should
not be assumed that podcasts on these issues will only be of interest to men
and boys.
Another challenge is finding the resources to run a pro-feminist podcast
sustainably in the long-term. One major benefit to podcasts is that they can be
developed and run by a small number of people on a ‘DIY’ basis, with
relatively little technological know-how. They also require comparatively few
resources – indeed, they are an important example of how technology and the
internet have enabled a degree of democratisation of media production (Vrikki
& Malik, 2019). Yet they are not resource-free – especially if run in a
relatively professionalised way. Many aspects of podcasting do require some
degree of investment, such as audio and IT equipment, recording software,
hosting, and marketing. There are free options for many of these components
but they are often more limited. This points to an immediate potential
inequality in podcast production; those individuals, organisations and areas of

MCS – Masculinities and Social Change, 12(2) 174
work with more resources will find it easier to create and sustain high-quality
podcasts.
Another crucial resource is time; podcasts can be time-consuming to set up
and run. It can thus be a challenge to find opportunities to record and release
new episodes on a regular and consistent basis. This will be a particular issue
for small podcast teams, and for people involved in gender equality work who
may already have multiple other commitments. There is a risk that much effort
can be placed in setting up a podcast, but that it dissipates over time as its
producers struggle to sustain it in the longer-term. One way of dealing with
this is being realistic in what can be achieved, and releasing new episodes less
often for example, but there is a balance to be struck here with retaining and
building a fanbase through regular outputs of new content.
A further challenge is ensuring that pro-feminist podcasts are of a good
and relatively professional quality. There is a technical element to this, such
as ensuring that audio output is of a high standard. This can make a
considerable difference in whether people choose to keep listening, and may
be challenging for individuals without training or experience in sound
engineering. Significant effort is also required to ensure that the content is of
a good quality; for example, that it is engaging, interesting and informative,
and goes into sufficient depth to be educative without being off-puttingly
lengthy. Podcasts are limitless in their potential length, but it is also important
to be as concise as possible, especially when seeking to appeal to new
listeners. Similarly, there is a balance to be found (depending on the target
audience) between ensuring that content is accessible for a wider listenership,
without overly simplifying the issues being discussed. All these challenges
require serious thought and preparation to ensure they are successfully
addressed, perhaps especially for pro-feminist podcasting where contentious
and sensitive issues which require careful treatment will be regularly
discussed. Even how the podcast is branded and marketed is important to
consider, as this can play an important role in attracting an audience.

175 McInerney & Burrell - Engaging men and boys
Risks
It is also important to acknowledge that there are risks attached to pro-feminist
podcasting, akin to those faced by the engaging men field more broadly. These
are based around the fundamental question of the extent to which work by and
with men and boys, and about men and masculinities, can be defined as pro-
feminist – and the contradictions imbued in such work, since it revolves
around men deconstructing their own power and privilege (Burrell, 2018).
When it comes to podcasting, it is not enough to simply label a show ‘pro-
feminist’ – pro-feminist values should be embedded within the different
elements of the podcast. For instance, its content could focus on and bring
attention to feminist issues, and seek to share feminist analyses and insights
with its audience. However, this goes beyond content, too – the ways in which
a podcast is run also connects to pro-feminism. For instance, who appears on
the show, how conversations are conducted, how the audience is interacted
with, and how it is promoted. Indeed, a podcast might deliberately not be
labelled as pro-feminist – out of concerns that this might unnecessarily deter
some listeners if seeking to engage a wider audience of men, for instance –
but still put pro-feminism into practice with its content and approach.
However, there is also a danger that podcasts about men and masculinities
could present themselves in progressive ways, whilst in practice (intentionally
or not) furthering anti-feminist agendas, for example in terms of the themes
they focus on or the guests they invite (e.g., if these lean more in men’s rights,
purely therapeutic, or mythopoetic directions), demonstrating benefits to a
clearly distinguished, explicit pro-feminist approach.
There is also a risk that pro-feminist podcasts may fail to ‘practice what
they preach’, and that gender inequalities re-surface as they can within other
aspects of work with men (Macomber, 2015; Pease, 2017). For instance,
podcasting about masculinities can lead to a re-centring of men, and in the
process risk marginalising women’s voices and leadership, or presenting men
as the primary ‘victims’ of patriarchy (McCarry, 2007). It could contribute to
what van Huis and Leek (2020) describe as a ‘men-streaming’ of gender
equality, in which attempts to involve men in the conversation can lead to
women and their oppression being pushed out of it. Given that hosts play a
significant role in podcasts, with particular attention placed on them, there is
a risk that this could further the ‘rock-star’ status (Westmarland et al., 2015)

MCS – Masculinities and Social Change, 12(2) 176
and ‘pedestal effect’ (Messner et al., 2015) pro-feminist men can receive, in
which they are disproportionately lauded whilst women continue the hard
work of day-to-day feminist activism with little acclaim. Unlike forms of
critical podcasting focused on elevating marginalised voices, a potential pitfall
of pro-feminist podcasts is that, by being based around allyship, they may
involve giving a privileged group a(nother) platform from which to speak, and
reinforcing rather than challenging that privilege. If a podcast gradually
becomes more popular over time, the individuals involved in it change, or it
attempts to reach a larger audience, then its investments in feminism could
also become diluted.
This highlights the need for men taking up pro-feminist podcasting to
critically reflect on their motivations for doing so - and how they can practice
genuine allyship in the process. Vital in this regard, as with other aspects of
engaging men, is accountability – to women and to feminism (Burrell &
Flood, 2019). This could involve a range of practices in relation to podcasting.
It could mean meaningfully including women in the hosting and running of
the podcast itself, in addition to having them as regular guests. It could involve
actively seeking out honest feedback from feminist women who have listened
to the podcast. It could include consulting and collaborating with feminist
groups and activists in the development of the show. At the same time, it is
important to avoid simply placing more labour on women’s shoulders, so such
feedback should not be an expectation, and be properly recompensed
wherever possible (Pease, 2017). Ongoing critical self-reflection, and seeking
out feedback from other pro-feminist men, are therefore also valuable in this
regard (Westmarland et al., 2021).
It is similarly important to take account of how to practice intersectionality
with pro-feminist podcasting. This includes ensuring that a wide and
representative range of voices and experiences are reflected in podcast content
and who is invited to appear on the show. Podcasting surely has even fewer
excuses than traditional media for a lack of diversity in guests, given the
relatively limitless boundaries of who can participate in features like remote
interviews. Pro-feminist podcasts have a particular responsibility to seek out
and give platforms to people and experiences which are marginalised more
broadly in society. But there are deeper questions about the power relations of
podcasting, too. Given the aforementioned issues around resources, it is

177 McInerney & Burrell - Engaging men and boys
important to consider who is able to set up podcasts in the first place, and
whose voices and shows are being supported, funded, and given attention.
There are risks, for instance, of reproducing neo-colonial power dynamics
within pro-feminist podcasting, given the ascendancy of the English language
in online media, and the dominance of Global North institutions in arenas such
as academia and civil society (Casey et al., 2013; Lewis et al., 2021). A
longstanding problem facing masculinities scholarship has been the
dominance of the field by a small group of white men in the Global North
(Bridges, 2021), so it is vital to ensure that this is not perpetuated within pro-
feminist podcasting. Conclusion
There are clearly a number of possible tensions, contradictions and struggles
involved in pro-feminist podcasting – as is the case with other forms of
engaging men and pro-feminist allyship – which demonstrate that this is not
something to be entered into lightly, and should be undertaken with care,
ongoing reflexivity, and accountability. It can involve a continuous dilemma
of how to critically highlight issues of masculinity, and provide feminist-
informed examples of men defying masculine norms, without further centring
men’s positions, voices and experiences in the spotlight.
This does not mean that pro-feminist podcasting should not be pursued –
quite the contrary. It has the potential to make a valuable contribution,
building on wider feminist podcasting efforts, to engaging with more men
about gender equality and ending violence. In fostering critical reflection
about masculinity issues, it can have a positive impact on the lives of men and
boys and the people around them, and expand their understanding of gendered
power relations. It is important not to exaggerate the transformative effects
that podcasts can have; they may typically serve as a useful supplement to
work with men and boys and critical pedagogy on men and masculinities,
rather than being an engine of that work. But they represent an important tool
in the inventory of pro-feminist practitioners, advocates and scholars to
communicate their analyses and insights, with one another and with wider
groups of men and boys. Indeed, it is arguably urgent that more pro-feminists
do engage with this increasingly popular and influential medium, whether it’s
as listeners, guests, creators of new podcasts, or integrating pro-feminist

MCS – Masculinities and Social Change, 12(2) 178
content into existing podcast series on varied subject matter. This is especially
important given the growing deluge of masculinist, anti-feminist,
misogynistic material across the internet, including in the podcast sphere, and
the relative lack of content critically questioning this, especially aimed at men
and boys. It is arguably the case that anti-feminist groups have more
effectively used online media to garner public support among men than pro-
feminists have to date (Westmarland et al., 2021), so this is an ever more
important domain in which to engage with men about the roles they can play
in equality, peace, and mutual care.
Notes
1 While some definitions of podcasts include video and other mediums, our use of the term
here is associated with the more commonly used audio podcasts.
2 Quotes used to describe several of the podcasts in this section were taken directly from their
descriptions on the Apple Podcasts platform.
Acknowledgements
McInerney was funded by the Gates Cambridge Trust, and Burrell is funded by a Leverhulme
Trust Early Career Fellowship. This paper’s open access publication was supported by grant
OPP1144 of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
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William W. McInerney is a Research Officer in the Centre for
Women, Peace and Security at the London School of Economics.
Stephen R. Burrell is a Leverhulme Early Career Fellow in the
Centre for Research into Violence and Abuse at Durham University.
Contact Address: Direct correspondence to William W.
McInerney: London School of Economics’ Centre for Women,
Peace and Security. Houghton St, London, WC2A 2AE, UK.
Email: w.w.mcinerney@lse.ac.uk