Is human consciousness eternal? Let's ask those in the hereafter to tell us
Luciano Pederzoli* and Patrizio Tressoldi**
*EvanLab, Firenze, Italy
**Science of Consciousness Research Group, Studium Patavinum, Padova University, Italy
By using special hypnotic suggestions, four selected participants were induced in a channeling
condition allowing to interview the purported channeled entities about the topic of human body
characteristics, the supreme Being, the spiritual evolution through multiple lives, after death experiences,
mediumship, channeling and who are we really.
The interviews offer a rich bulk of information that seems to converge about a shared vision of who
we are and what we will experience after the physical death.
Even though this study still leaves plenty of room for doubt regarding the information’s source, we
believe that our procedure is relatively easy and flexible to be used with experienced hypnotists and
channellers and can be replicated also by sceptics, to compare information obtained in this study.
Keywords: hypnosis; channeling; after death experiences; mediumship; dissociative experiences
Is it possible to know whether or not human, or even animal, consciousness survives death by asking
those who reside in a reality where there is no death and to whom human existence is very familiar?
Since ancient times certain people have claimed the ability to connect with various entities,
divinities, spirits, etc. and interact with them to obtain information pertinent to themselves as well as their
peers and communities.
A recent study analysed the cultural characteristics of societies who accept these possibilities and the
personal characteristics which enable this type of experience, commonly defined as channelling (Luhrmann
et al. 2021). Channelling is also common in Western cultures, as documented, for example, by Pederzoli,
Tressoldi and Wahbeh (2021), Wahbeh, Carpenter & Radin (2018) and by Wahbeh and Butzer (2020).
However, the fundamental scientific problem is this: “Does the information given by channellers actually
originate from beings living in another reality, or from the channellers themselves, even if they are unaware
of it because they are in a type of dissociative identity state?”
We devised a hypnotic technique to induce certain individuals, selected for their ability to reach deep
states of hypnosis, into an OBE (Out of Body Experience) state and obtain channelling experiences during
which it is possible to conduct actual dialogues with presumed entities who come forward for this task. The
basic technique is described by Pederzoli and Tressoldi (2018) and an initial report is presented by Pederzoli
et al. (2020).
In this study we report what was claimed by four entities channelled by four women interviewed by
the hypnotist L.P. (first author) with respect to different topics.
We have grouped together the information according to the topic, to make it easier to compare what
was given by each of the 4 different channelled entities.
Participants were four selected women, we will name A, B,C, and D, with a long experience in non-
ordinary states of consciousness induced by hypnotic suggestions with the same hypnotist. Their
chronological age ranged from 42 to 58 years and their experience with this procedure ranged from 20 to 40
All were free from any clinical physical and mental illness and run a normal professional life.
The Agarthian, channeled by participant A.
Agarthian: Àgartha... which approximately means ‘my home’. Agarthians live in a type of bubble arranged
in an energy-mental-spiritual configuration which makes it unaffected by earthquakes, despite being
located in a seismic area. It can be thought of as a system of caves, although they are only partially in
the physical world. Agarthians are not higher spiritual entities, but more like a primary school teacher
with a class of children. Those like him could be considered as angels or archangels.
[In these channellings the interviewer asked the channel questions, who in turn interacted with the
channelled entity and then repeated the answers.]
L.P. – Does he have a Physical Body?
Agarthian: Not like we do, but in their ‘dimension’, yes they do.
L.P. – How long is his life? Does he live forever?
Agarthian: He knows there’s a term for it, but compared to our life it’s practically forever.
L.P. – Does his ‘way of seeing the things’ like ours or different?
Agarthian: It seems that they in some way were part of the creation of the physical world, therefore they
know it as would a designer who was involved in part of the project, but not all of it.
L.P. – So he also knows how Agarthians reason…
L.P. – Like we do?
Agarthian: He considers it more expansive.
L.P. – Therefore, if I understand correctly, he’s not an Agarthian.
Agarthian: He is Agarthian, and reminds you that his task is to speak…
HE/HIM, channeled by participant B.
“He” appears only as energy, and is made of thought, as in intent – in this case intent for contact – and
energy, as in ‘density of thought’ and not in ‘force multiplied by distance’, like in physics. “He” is eternal
and he does not have emotional reactions as a thought-form. He is free to leave his dimension at will and can
also incarnate. “I am part of you and you are part of me: we are one group”. He is also part of a larger
system and is only “He” when he is interacting with humans. His level is lower at the moment of
identification, but can rejoin the Light of which he is a part, therefore access all that is known, because he
already has this knowledge.
During our interactions, “He” behaves like us as an autonomous entity and smiles at the idea of identifying
as one individual, whereas he is much less of an individual than we think. “He” explains that, like us, he has
a certain amount of freedom to make decisions – such as making contact with us – which helps the Supreme
Being have better experiences using original approaches to problems and their solutions which arise from
the freedom to choose. The Supreme Being is not static, but in continuous change as experiences are
[In these channellings, the interviewer interacted directly with the channelled entity.]
L.P. – What are you made of? How do you differ from our Subtle and Psychic Bodies (see below)?
“He” – Since I’m in a different dimension, I am closer to the Subtle Body, but my presence is connected to a
project involving both of you and is at a level above the Psychic Body: I am a type of embodiment of
that project, above the Subtle Body level, which is very close to the Physical Body and very
individualized. I, however, am less individualized and do not have a personality which identifies with
either NR (the channeller) or LP, nor do I have a dual personality; often people ‘intersect’, but it’s rare
for communication to be this direct. It is your intention to obtain further information which ensures
that this manifestation takes place.
LIGHT, channeled by participant C.
“Light” appears as a being that is actually a non-being, a warm white light. It is formless, just light. The
Being acknowledges itself as light and not matter, and that it lives in the cosmos – it is part of the light of the
Universes. It has no name because it is only a part of a light: it doesn’t have its own identity and is a
manifestation of something more advanced. It has also been physical.
[In these channellings, the interviewer interacted directly with the channelled entity]
L.P. – Another technical question: Have ‘you’, to the extent that we can use that pronoun, ever had a
“Light” – Yes, I have had many physical lives.
L.P. – And then did you detach because detachment comes with advancement? Or for another reason?
“Light” – It’s actually not really an ‘ascension’, but there are different levels of experience. Time doesn’t
exist, therefore I simultaneously live in many physical beings and species, and as non-physical.
Depending on the situation – for you there’s time, so it’s a moment – I can convey different
information and live different experiences.
L.P. – For you, is choosing which experience to live only a matter of focusing attention on a particular one,
or something else, given that time is irrelevant?
“Light” – Yes, I would say it is attention to it.
L.P. – So effectively, you dedicate yourself to plate X (or photo X) rather than another…
“Light” – Exactly, but until we become non-physical we remain unaware of the other pieces.
L.P. – So you and ‘He’ are then…
“Light” – … the same emanation.
L.P. – If you are both a single emanation, then we physical beings are a sub-emanation…
“Light” – Yes. There’s a distinction amongst beings: me and ‘He’ are very similar emanations – non-
physical beings of light – and we each have our own matrix existing on multiple levels, in multiple
Bodies, but beyond a certain level there is no longer a distinction.
L.P. – Are all your Bodies non-physical or are some physical?
“Light” – At this level of consciousness we are all non-physical, but some physical beings have a high level
of consciousness, for example the Buddha, Christ…They have been and there are also some around
today, but remain hidden.
L.P. – But did Christ actually exist? Apparently it is not historically documented..
“Light” – Yes he existed: he was a man.
L.P. – The one who died on the cross or another one?
“Light” – Yes, he was crucified.
L.P. – You say that you are a separate Emanation from VR (the channeller) and me, so I would like to know
if your connection to us is an assignment you were given, or something else.
“Light” – In the ‘Centre’, from which we come, there is no separation, so when beings become physical –
especially, but not only, on Earth – they must remain in contact with Emanations if they wish to
evolve. I am only a fragment and only distinguishable because you give me a name, but in reality there
is no distinction, a name is only an anchor point of the energy from which we come.
L.P. – We can therefore say that you assume a single identity only at the moment we call for you, so as to
assist our understanding.
“Light” – Yes, I am VR’s anchor, but really I am not distinct from everything else.
L.P. – OK, and how do I come into all this?
“Light” – You translate the contact, the interchange that occurs.
L.P. – Since, unlike us, you don’t have a Physical Body, do you have something that resembles our sense
organs? How do you collect data for processing?
“Light” – What we have in common is mainly perception, which humans can also have.
L.P. – Do you all have the same perception?
“Light” – Basically yes, all non-physical beings have this perception that allows them to communicate
without words or gestures, but via concepts.
ASTOR, channeled by participant D.
Astor says he comes from another Universe. He is pure intelligent energy, he has no body, and refers to
himself as a Guide. He lives in an intermediate dimension where there is no consistency; he is close to the
Source. He has the ability to ‘enter’ into things to describe how and from what they are composed. He has
the ability to create new energies, (he is a Creator Energy), especially new life forms, and he has done so on
Earth. He is aware of the work we are doing in terms of disseminating information, raising awareness and
educating people, and he says that they are doing it too: it is necessary to assist the current very precarious
state of Humanity.
[In these channellings, the interviewer interacted directly with the channelled entity]
L.P. – We physical beings have many limitations: what are your limitations, as non-physical beings? What
can and can’t you do?
ASTOR – We can never intervene unless asked.
L.P. – When you are asked, do you always intervene?
ASTOR – We always seek to help.
L.P. – How can your help be requested?
ASTOR – Just a connection is enough, which can be either telepathic or at a soul level.
L.P. – So it’s enough to just express the need…
ASTOR – Exactly.
L.P. – Are there any other limits, such as things you can’t know?
ASTOR – For each of us, each energy form, the greater the evolution the greater the ability for expression.
A detailed description of the hypnotic procedure is described in Pederzoli and Tressoldi (2018). The
main steps were the following ones:
- Induction in a deep relaxation state;
- Induction in a deep hypnotic state;
- Induction of an out-of-body consciousness state;
- Induction in a channeling state.
When participant responded to hypnotist that she was in contact with the specific entity, the
hypnotist started the interview. In order to control the channelers’ mental fatigue, each session couldn’t last
more than one hour. Consequently, it was necessary to complete the interviews in different sessions, carried
out at distance of at least a week.
The number of sessions for each channeler, were: 4, for channeler A; 7 for channeler B; 8 for
channeler C and 8 for channeler D, for a total of 29 sessions.
Topic: Physical, Subtle and Psychic Body – Their characteristics and relationships
L.P. – To date we have discovered what we called the Subtle and Psychic Bodies, but above the latter is
there a pyramidal grouping of Psychic Bodies, or something else? Can you tell us?
Agarthian: Yes, what L.P. have called ‘pyramid’.
L.P. – So a person’s Psychic Body can join other Psychic Bodies to form a Group Body, which can join with
other like ones to form a Superbody, and so on until the apex of the pyramid. Is this correct?
Agarthian: It’s the right basic idea.
L.P. – For example, does my Psychic Body only control my Physical Body or others too?
Agarthian: ‘Control’ is the wrong word: it ‘lends energy’ to other Bodies.
L.P. – But doesn’t it also gather information from other Bodies?
L.P. – Can these other bodies be in the same dimension or in different realities?
Agarthian: They are constantly in contact with what for us are different realities. He doesn’t understand why
it’s so hard for us to understand that there are other dimensions: he considers us stupid.
L.P. – Given that the Psychic Body gathers information from multiple Physical Bodies, and the Physical
Body has a personal identity which is the same as the Subtle Body, at what level does personal identity
cease to exist? Can the Psychic Body also have a personal identity?
Agarthian: The Psychic Body is also separated from the others.
L.P. – What does that mean? Is it separated from other Psychic Bodies?
Agarthian: It is separated from other Psychic Bodies even as part of the group: it is a part, but also separate.
There is always a definition of itself, what it was and what it will be.
L.P. – Therefore in ‘my’ Psychic Body there is my identity and also that of others from which it gathers
information and which are in other ‘dimensions’. Correct?
Agarthian: Yes. For them it’s normal to be in contact with spirits without a Physical Body, whereas for us
it’s ‘spiritualism’ and is considered amazing. If someone loved another in life, irrespective of what
kind of love, it’s normal to come from other dimensions to assist the loved one, or simply to see what
L.P. – Is it true that shortly after physical death the Subtle Body disappears, dies?
Agarthian: A small residual remains.
L.P. – At what level is this residual? What can it do?
Agarthian: It’s a type of memory of the latest life.
L.P. – … and it’s permanent. Does the Subtle Body only hold the memory of the latest life or also of previous
Agarthian: There are as many (Subtle) Bodies as previous lives, like bags attached to a belt.
L.P. – Is this belt carried by the Psychic or Subtle Body?
Agarthian: There is an Inner Identity which carries all these bags, these memory banks.
L.P. – Is this Inner Identity part of the Psychic Body or independent from it?
Agarthian: It’s independent, because the Psychic Body manifests the so-called psychic abilities of this
L.P. – Is this Inner Identity and carrier of memories of previous lives at a higher level than the Subtle Body?
L.P. – So it is somewhere between the Subtle and Psychic Bodies. Correct?
L.P. – So, we could say that the edge of physicality is the point of dematerialization. Of what type of matter
is the Subtle Body made, which we sometimes see as a fine mist?
Agarthian: Something which has yet to be discovered.
L.P. – Is this something ‘below’ the known elementary particles or is it unconnected?
Agarthian: It’s related and yet not related: it’s not entirely unconnected to elementary particles.
L.P. – Let’s change the subject: does the Subtle Body control the Physical Body? Is it an intermediary?
What is it for?
Agarthian: It’s for health and for exchanging information.
L.P. – Agarthian: Is the Subtle Body only linked to one Physical Body or several?
Agarthian: Only one Physical Body.
L.P. – If I understand correctly, the Inner Identity contains memories of one’s current Physical Body as well
as previous lives. Is this correct?
Agarthian: Yes, for those who are permitted to remember.
L.P. – Good, let’s again discuss the Subtle Body: in terms of perception, how is it superior to the Physical
Agarthian: It senses the surrounding energies and displays abilities which we consider magic.
L.P. – So basically paranormal abilities. As an example, a dowser would use the Subtle Body...
Agarthian: The dowser feels the energies in a location and what the earth and trees communicate...water
shows its presence through these channels.
L.P. – Does personal identity, which we can appropriately call Inner Identity because it contains memories
of the current and past lives, have superior decision-making abilities or is it just memory?
Agarthian: It’s simply memory, because the current entity must act autonomously.
L.P. – Consequently this memory is used by the Psychic Body to ‘go beyond’, to gather data and acquire
L.P. – Therefore ‘my’ Psychic Body collects data from my Inner Identity and from other Inner Identities so
as to create a greater experience... Is this concept correct?
L.P. – So what abilities does the Psychic Body have that are superior to the Subtle Body’s (and the Physical
Agarthian: They are not considered superior or inferior, merely different.
L.P. – What are these different abilities? Can it sense others’ thoughts, their sensations...?
Agarthian: It was stated earlier: the Subtle Body senses energies, and the Psychic Body exhibits them.
L.P. – So can we say that the Psychic Body creates them?
Agarthian: They are used more than created. The Subtle Body perceives them and the Psychic Body senses
them as information to use, always for the spiritual process of learning and action in the physical life.
L.P. – So according to him consciousness resides in a different dimension...
Agarthian: ...with respect to the physical, but interacts with the physical via methods yet to be discovered.
L.P. – It is my understanding that there are two of these consciousnesses: one which I have called the Subtle
Body and the other I called the Psychic Body. If they are real, are they in two different realities?
Agarthian: Yes and they interact in ways which were explained the previous session.
L.P. – There’s one point I still don’t understand: the consciousness which I have called Subtle Body, which
has the same identity as the Physical Body to which it is joined, deteriorates after the latter’s death
almost to nothing and remains as a memory, but does this memory, together with memories of
previous lives, form its own identity, or is it only one of the many identities the Psychic Body may
Agarthian: It’s a grain of the Psychic Body. We can use the analogy of a bracelet with many charms.
L.P. – Therefore my Psychic Body has multiple simultaneous identities, one of which is in my evolutionary
line, comprised of many successive identities (my current identity is the one talking), and thus has
multiple evolutionary lines. Correct?
Agarthian: It is suggested to avoid using the word ‘line’, and instead either ‘evolution’ or ‘development’.
L.P. – How many simultaneous ‘evolutions’ does the Psychic Body have?
Agarthian: The less developed have three or four, while others can have ten or twelve simultaneously.
L.P. – Are they all strictly in different realities, or can there be more than one in the same reality?
L.P. – When the Physical Body dies, what happens to the other Bodies? Does the Subtle Body linger for a bit
and does the Psychic Body live forever?
Agarthian: The Physical Body dies, the Subtle Body slowly deteriorates until it is pure memory, and the
Psychic Body continues forever alongside what we call the Spiritual Entity, because it is a medium
required for subsequent physical lives.
L.P. – Does this Psychic Body then join other Psychic Bodies to form the pyramidal structure we spoke
about, up to the highest level?
Agarthian: It can be thought of like that.
L.P. – What physiological means do outer – non-physical – Bodies use to connect to the Physical Body? Do
they use the brain as a type of modem? What do they do?
Agarthian: They use the whole body, otherwise if the brain alone were enough, humans would be only a
brain... In order to define the entirety of the Physical Body’s journey – in the physical world – a
physical body is needed.
L.P. – Are awareness and memory outside the Physical Body? Are they within other Bodies?
Agarthian: The latter too.
L.P. – To what extent are awareness and memory within the Physical Body?
Agarthian: The Physical Body’s awareness and memory are needed for physical things. Other Bodies are
needed for sentimental, emotional and mental parts, which store information not held in the brain: for
example it can be in the heart or the abdomen, and therefore within the corresponding Bodies in the
etheric world, as humans sometimes call it.
L.P. – Do the bags attached to the personal Inner Identity’s belt also contain lives not yet lived? Is it
possible to explore them?
Agarthian: Yes, there are also lives yet to be lived, but their exploration is not advised because it would
violate the principle of learning throughout one’s existence.
L.P. – If this prohibition is violated, would it alter something in those future lives?
Agarthian: No, because the main events remain immutable; the prohibition exists because when events are
seen ahead of time, the emotional and didactic impact on the person in the moment of living them is
muted. Very few are permitted to clearly see their future and only if they are able to remain detached.
L.P. – As stated, when the Psychic Body interacts with other Psychic Bodies it keeps its identity, but does it
form a group super-identity with them, for example one with 10 Psychic Bodies?
Agarthian: Yes and no. There cannot be a fusion of Psychic Bodies: there can be a unity of thoughts and
views (as we would say).
L.P. – Does this unity of thoughts and views form an entity in itself, or does it remain distributed amongst
the various Psychic Bodies?
Agarthian: A bit of both, because each of those Psychic Bodies forms this entity and each surrenders part of
its energy to this unity, while still remaining separate.
L.P. – So repeating this process we reach the largest entity, that being the Supreme Being, whose identity
encompasses something from each existing being. Is this model suitable?
L.P. – In the physical world, what concrete things does the Subtle Body do?
Agarthian: For the moment we can say it mainly serves two functions: mediate intention and transmit
information, as if it were a part of the telepathic process.
L.P. – And what concrete things does the Psychic Body do in the physical world?
Agarthian: By itself very little: it needs one of the other bodies to act.
L.P. – So it’s able to process information, to learn, but cannot act directly on the physical world.
L.P. – You have told us that we have incredible mental abilities, so then can the Subtle and Psychic Bodies,
which usually use a biological Physical Body with particular DNA, also potentially use a purposely
Agarthian: Biological material is essential.
L.P. – Can the Subtle Body move objects?
L.P. – Can the Psychic Body move objects?
L.P. – Really... but why is it so difficult?
Agarthian: Because they need to be specially trained to use the ether to move objects.
L.P. – How do these two Bodies deal with emotions? Are they familiar with then or not feel them at all?
Agarthian: They don’t feel them.
L.P. – So the Physical Body feels emotions and enriches them... We used the analogy of the bags containing
life experiences attached to the Psychic body’s belt: do the bags pertaining to different identities reach
the same evolutionary level, or do they differ depending on the identity to which they belong?
Agarthian: They are different evolutionary levels.
L.P. – Are the Subtle and Psychic Bodies of disabled people different to ‘normal’ ones? Are they in closer
contact with the universe than others?
Agarthian: Their Subtle and Psychic Bodies are completely normal. In some cases (inevitable events) these
people, more or less unconsciously, either from birth or at some point thereafter, decided to have these
disabilities because they were needed for development. Regarding a specific question by the
channeller about assisted suicide, the answer is rather vague, but it seems that they are not keen on it.
L.P. – Let’s talk about the Psychic Body, the highest one: does it have a limited lifespan?
Agarthian: It lasts forever.
L.P. – Does it have a particular appearance, or can it assume one?
Agarthian: In reality it doesn’t have an appearance, but it can take on any one it wants.
L.P. – When do the Physical, Subtle, and Psychic Bodies connect together – is it in the foetal stage, at birth,
Agarthian: True integration occurs between the first and tenth year of life. The process begins at birth, but
ends much later.
L.P. – This information was totally unexpected!
Agarthian: This explains why children easily recall past lives: since full integration has yet to occur, the
child can be attracted by a ‘shinier’ charm on the ‘bracelet’ which contains all previous lives, and may
therefore talk about events and people who are unknown in this time and place.
L.P. – If two Physical Bodies (and relative Subtle Bodies) belonging to the same Psychic Body (which
obtains data from Physical-Subtle pairs usually from different realities) are simultaneously in the
same plane of reality and both on Earth, would they recognize each other if they met?
Agarthian: In this case it depends only on the governing Psychic Body: if it wants them to recognize each
other, they will, otherwise they won’t.
L.P. – So then the Subtle Body’s function is only to decode signals transmitted from one Psychic Body to
another via the Physical Body and the reality in which it lives?
Agarthian: The Subtle Body has other functions which at the moment cannot be revealed.
L.P. – Is it Psychic Bodies s which exchange information via reality or is it other entities?
Agarthian: Both Psychic Bodies and other entities which, for a greater purpose, either collaborate or battle
against each other using physical reality as a means of communication and chessboard on which to
move their pieces.
L.P. – And how is the match played?
Agarthian: It is played according to rules obviously unknown to humans. He himself only knows that
winning is important, but doesn’t know why.
L.P. – Are those ‘other entities’ Psychic Body groups or other types?
Agarthian: Most of them are other types. Seeing as how we’re on this subject, entities which govern Earth
are not Psychic Bodies for the most part – they are other higher entities which mostly have never been
L.P. – Are they not groupings of Psychic Body groups?
Agarthian: They are other, individual entities.
L.P. – Were these other entities also created by the Supreme Being to learn, or do they exist autonomously?
Agarthian: They were also created by the Supreme Being, but their purposes may be other than learning and
additional to it.
L.P. – Can we get an idea of what other purposes there are, other than learning?
Agarthian: For example, the creation of new entities, improving existing ones, the deletion of spiritually
inappropriate entities, improving physical reality...
L.P. – The improvement of physical reality which Psychic Bodies use to communicate amongst themselves...
so there’s a referee who changes the rules during the game. Is this how it is?
Agarthian: If it’s useful for the greater purpose, yes. For example on the chessboard, from a certain point
onwards, new pieces may be inserted which were not there before.
L.P. – This makes me think that the pyramidal hierarchy of Psychic Bodies represents a game in which
outside entities change the rules according to criteria which the players don’t know and can’t
Agarthian: That’s exactly how it is.
L.P. – Can you also better explain the exact relationship between the Physical and Subtle Bodies?
“He” – You associate the concept of identity with the Physical Body and at most with the Subtle, which is
closely linked to the Physical. The place from which I’m speaking is already a very specific branch,
suitable for contact with you, but ‘identity’ is a term used for physical life, and is otherwise
nonsensical; there is just more branching. I am ‘above’ you, even if I am you, and as I’ve said, I am at
a level which branches into your two Psychic Bodies which in turn branch out.
L.P. – We call this framework a ‘tree diagram’, and allows a complex problem to be broken into smaller
parts to facilitate its solution. We also use it in computer memory, where we start with one folder
which is divided into sub-folders and then into sub-sub-folders and so on, until the final files. In this
case, instead of files we have Physical Bodies. Is this correct?
“He” – Yes, but in our case the branches don’t only go down, but rather can also turn upwards and expand
the ‘pyramid’, greatly increasing the complexity.
L.P. – Physical Bodies can interact brutally amongst themselves; can Subtle Bodies do the same?
“He” – Yes, the Subtle Body is very close to the Physical: if the Physical Body is in a brawl, the Subtle
Body isn’t caressing, but it’s not just packaging for the Physical Body, it’s another level, so the
opposite is also true – that is, if the Subtle Body goes into a higher state, so does the Physical, like in
L.P. – If we make an appointment to meet during an OBE, such as during sleep, is the encounter between
Subtle or Psychic Bodies?
“He” – Psychic Bodies meet.
L.P. – How is it then that the meeting is in a location which appears real, such as a room that doesn’t exist,
but has a couch on which the two sit just like in their Physical Bodies? Is this only a representation, or
“He” – It’s a representation, an anchor which you all need.
L.P. – Obviously Psychic Bodies can interact amongst themselves: what sort of things can they do?
“He” – They can do lots of things (giggles): depending on the reason: they can have lots of ‘strength’, in the
normal meaning, but their interaction is rather complex.
L.P. – Is it an exchange of information, or does it also occur at other levels?
“He” – Information exchange could represent a level which is not quite basic, but lower. Psychic Bodies are
at a truly high level, almost one where energy states are exchanged.
L.P. – So it’s a transmission of very profound concepts, not just information…
“He” – Yes, and also at that level individuality is very blurred.
L.P. – I think you’ve already told us that animals have a Subtle Body like us…
“He” – Yes.
L.P. – Do they have a Psychic Body?
“He” – Their Psychic Body exists, but in a form which can’t be described as either there or not there. I spoke
about it regarding minerals, which also involves very large volumes (such as the Himalayas); animals
may have an individual Psychic Body, but usually it’s a pack Psychic Body.
L.P. – As in wolves…
“He” – Yes. It’s not impossible, but rare that a Psychic Body involves a single animal; an animal experience
is not for living as an individual, but for other reasons.
L.P. – Does this also apply to solitary animals?
“He” – Yes, those too. It’s often a life aimed at experiencing nature’s elements.
L.P. – So is the experience of the Psychic Body of a pack or a species of animal preparatory to the human
experience, or is it nothing to do with linear evolution as we know it?
“He” – No, not necessarily: usually no. It’s not necessary for all experiences to develop linearly. The animal
experience is closely linked to the elements of nature.
L.P. – I recall a regression in which the subject talked about a physical life as an eagle in order to feel a
sense of freedom.
“He” – Right, that’s a fitting example. The experience of physical life can also involve plants. However,
specific sensations don’t always require human physical life.
L.P. – Up to what level of reality is there a division in the sexes – is it only at the Physical Body level or
“He” – At the physical level; however, even though the Subtle Body is neither male nor female, it is
affected, as it’s closely linked to the Physical Body. The distinction between male and female only
exists at the physical level, to allow different experiences. Above the physical level, which doesn’t
mean better, that kind of differentiation is pointless.
L.P. – I think the reason for the male/female distinction is, technically, to ensure the greatest possible
difference between offspring and parents; indeed, the random transmission of half the paternal genes
and half of the maternal genes ensures not just so that the children differ from each other, but also so
that neither of the two genetic heritages dominate in the long run. Thus there is maximum genetic
variation in the offspring and a greater statistical chance of adaptation to the environment.
“He” – Yes, this way there’s the greatest possibility of differentiation (and best result) both technically and
experientially: it’s the most efficient way.
L.P. – At the Subtle Body level is there a plan relative to the Physical Body, or are the Physical and Subtle
Bodies one thing, and we need to go higher than the Subtle when we talk about plans?
“He” – Recall that time when NR’s Subtle Body was present at her first potential birth in this life, and
decided not to unite with that Physical Body, which died, and two years later the same Subtle Body
did not decide immediately to enter the current Physical Body; when a physical life is planned, it is
known that certain experiences with the unified Physical and Subtle Bodies are unavoidable, but in the
moment the two unite – in this case at birth, but it could also be at conception – the Subtle Body may
decide whether or not to associate with that Physical Body. However, if it decides to join it, it remains
anchored to it, and doesn’t have a true life of its own; its role is only to fulfil a plan together with the
L.P. – You said that the intention relative to a plan pre-exists for both the Physical and Subtle Bodies, but
from the above example it appears that the Subtle Body exists ‘before’ (temporally or sequentially) its
related Physical Body. Is it always like this?
“He” – The moment an intention for a physical life is launched, the conditions for its fulfilment are created
and a Subtle Body is born which is destined to join a Physical Body for that physical experience.
Sometimes it doesn’t ‘synchronize’ correctly with it and remains somehow ‘detached’, persisting for a
while even after the Physical Body’s death, but it doesn’t really have a life of its own even though it
existed before and after the Physical Body. The Subtle Body’s functions are more ‘subtle’ than the
Physical Body’s – we’ve spoken about it and you call them ‘paranormal’, such as telepathy, which
isn’t possible without the Subtle Body – and it collects much useful information for the physical
experience: it is connected to matter but does not derive from it and it’s as if it were born ‘misaligned’
with respect to the Physical Body, because it is very close to it and without it would have no
‘consistency’, even though there are moments when it does have its own life, such as after the death of
a Physical Body which was overly attached to physical experience. The higher intention of the Psychic
Body, while this Subtle Body slowly disappears, could meanwhile create another for a different
physical experience within the same ‘lives plan’, and all experiences taken from lives relative to this
‘lives plan’ merge into the Psychic Body. We can liken the Subtle Body to a software program, which
can’t function without suitable hardware.
L.P. – Do the Physical Body’s real components correspond to what we know – or a more detailed version of
it – according to official science, or are they something totally different? I’m referring to the problem
of how the Subtle and Psychic Bodies connect to the Physical: do they act directly on its physical
components or do they use another means, such as a type of ‘matter’ unknown to us but is a base
component of the Physical Body itself?
“He” – What you’re missing the most is the ‘force’ keeping matter together: I identify it with what I call
intention, which also acts on other types of matter and on physical life. For the time being, your
sensing of it is evidence, but you still don’t know why matter aggregates in one way rather than
L.P. – So this intention is a type of plan for how matter needs to come together…
“He” – Exactly. Let’s look at a Oneness – the apex of the pyramid, according to your analogy – a nucleus-
unit directed toward expansion which also becomes experience: experience isn’t necessarily living in a
human body, it can be something else, and your level relative to the tree that grows from the initial
seed/intention is very diverse and individualized, therefore in reality you can sense what launching an
intention means, but you don’t know how it coalesces into one form or another.
L.P. – Pragmatically, the form assumed by the human body is due to its DNA, but it also seems due to an
initial idea, a type of project which actualizes into a Physical Body made a certain way… A heart
becomes a heart – and nothing else – in accordance with the plan, which is adhered to by stem cells to
“He” – Yes, that’s correct.
L.P. – We attribute great importance to the brain for communication with the Subtle and Psychic Body, but
you were saying that other parts of the Physical Body are also important. What exactly is the brain’s
task? Is it only a type of modem, or something more sophisticated?
“He” – Every body part has its own ‘intelligence’ and the brain does not occupy the exalted position it is
given, but its job is as ‘co-ordinator’: this function has been seen in scientific studies and has led to the
brain being given a position of priority.
L.P. – Is the Subtle Body comprised of matter in which the particles are very far apart from each other,
much more than those (molecules, atoms, sub-atomic particles) comprising our Physical Bodies,
which are nevertheless quite far apart?
“He” – I have already said that you don’t know what really holds the Physical Body together and gives it its
form. The Subtle Body is the closest to the Physical and in a way, your idea is close enough to the
truth: all Subtle Bodies also follow a rule that gives them a particular form and, although ‘similar’ to
the Physical Bodies with which they are linked, they are, so to speak, much more ‘rarefied’, and
because of this they have different abilities than the Physical Body. Their ‘substance’ is similar to
what constitutes the Physical Body: particles that are more ‘elementary’ than those you know, even
below the Quark level, but are not something different: they are associated with matter.
L.P. – Can that which gives the Physical Body its shape be schematized with Rupert Sheldrake’s
“He” – Yes. Once you asked me which is born first, the Subtle or Physical body: it may seem as if the Subtle
is first, but in reality they are part of the same plan.
L.P. – Are these as yet unknown particles detectable with current technology? It seems they can be
photographed – is this because they emit photons?
“He” – They don’t all have the same density: it’s not quite the right word, but you get the idea. Even though
they are all the same nature, their ‘density’ may differ.
L.P. – Can their density be high or low?
“He” – It’s as if some of them are subject to more physical influence and so are ‘denser’, therefore more
L.P. – So then is it easier to photograph a crude and ‘materialistic’ person’s Subtle Body than that of a
thinker whose head is always in the clouds?
“He” – No, it has nothing to do with the mind and its abilities. The density already differs the instant the
Subtle Body is formed and its properties depend on the Physical Body with which it is destined to join:
in other words, it’s a technical choice at the project level. Since they’re connected, the Physical and
Subtle Bodies exchange ‘abilities’, even though you, as I have said, make little use of the Subtle Body,
apart from those rare cases of frequent visitors to non-physical worlds, usually when it involves
deceased people. Actually, those with a ‘denser’ Subtle Body also have more pronounced physical
abilities, for example some mediums, and this makes it easier – more accessible – to use the Subtle
Body’s abilities, bringing them ‘closer’ to it. This is also the case with AS (a clairvoyant).
L.P. – It seems like those with a denser Subtle Body have greater access to ‘paranormal’ abilities, while
those with a less dense one have far less access; do they simply have different paths to travel?
“He” – No, a denser Subtle Body facilitates contact with the Physical Body, but also strengthens some
abilities of the latter and helps it. It is part of the choice relating to the Lives Plan, but it doesn’t
necessarily need to be used in the way AS uses it. You (LP) have a rather dense Subtle Body, while
NR’s is less dense and she is learning how to use its abilities, but hers is different to yours, and so has
other properties, and indeed she is the channeller. Do you remember when she chose not to enter the
body of what would have been her miscarried sister, and later was undecided, after birth, about
whether or not to enter what would become her current physical body? Her Subtle Body, first
miscarried Physical Body and second (later accepted) Physical Body were all part of the same plan
and it’s wrong to say that the Subtle Body was born before those Physical Bodies: they were all
chosen according to the Plan.
L.P. – During my OBE studies I came across two distinct outer bodies – which I later called the Subtle and
Psychic Body; much later I discovered that a similar concept also appears in the Egyptian Book of the
Dead, which talks about Ka, which is very much like the Subtle Body, and a Ba, which resembles the
Psychic Body. Can we assume that the ancient Egyptians also had access to the same information
4000/5000 years ago?
“He” – Yes of course. Actually many people – as you know – have this type of experience, and often they
are conscious of the experiences, but if they were to take the experiences seriously they would need to
change their beliefs, and that doesn’t happen.
L.P. – At first, as soon as I discovered the existence of the three Bodies, I thought – from my view from
below – that the Psychic Body controlled several Physical and Subtle Bodies, as I was building what
was already a draft of a theory about the ‘Lives Plan’, but that it was also in a group with other
similar Psychic Bodies (a Super Body), with its own identity at a higher level, and then these Super
Bodies in turn came together to make Super-Super Bodies, also with their own identity and even
higher still, and so on. You, however, are presenting a view from above in which, starting from an
initial thought – at the apex – there is successive branching, all the way to real physical lives.
“He” – This is the correct concept.
L.P. – Who creates the Subtle Body? Is it the Psychic Body, if I understood correctly? Can it be created
when desired and also later destroyed?
“He” – I’ve already said, at the moment an intention is launched regarding the ‘Lives Plan’, it’s as if the
Physical and Subtle Bodies are created at the same time, even though it appears that the Subtle was
made first: its task is to make available (even if it doesn’t seem like it for humans) the information
regarding the task to be accomplished. Sometimes a Subtle Body can choose to not use a specific
Physical Body, but it doesn’t exist on its own.
L.P. – So then if the Physical Body becomes aware of its assignment, does it mean that it’s in close contact
with its Subtle Body?
“He” – Yes, correct. The Physical Body also possesses its own information relative to matter: it even has a
contact link to the Psychic Body, but the Subtle has to be the interface; nevertheless the majority of the
Subtle Body’s potential is not used by you.
L.P. – You mentioned that the Subtle Body’s density can vary: does the denser one’s particles differ to the
less dense Body, or are they distinguished by another trait?
“He” – They are not different, it is their ‘force of attraction’, so to speak, which differs – we could call it
their ‘specific weight’.
L.P. – Can they be seen in visible light and/or ultraviolet?
“He” – In this case, those with a ‘denser’ Subtle Body are more visible, not so much the Subtle Body itself,
but because in being ‘denser’ it has greater ‘proximity’ to the Physical Body and therefore its
components are more connected to the Physical Body’s perception.
L.P. – Basically they are more visible and easier to photograph.
“He” – Yes.
L.P. – I think I’ve asked you before, but I’ll ask again: is our memory located in one of the three Bodies, or
“He” – The memory of everything that happened in someone’s current life, the individual who right now is
called LP, can be said to be within the Physical Body. Access to memories of past lives and all the rest
depend on the Subtle Body’s ability to connect to all other memories – for example, the Akashic
records. However, memory is also structured into levels, ranging from that just mentioned relative to
the current life, to that of lives related to a limited plan, to the memory of lives related to the larger
plan and so on up to the highest.
L.P. – When the Physical Body dies, is this memory transferred somewhere else, or does it disappear?
“He” – Some time back I said that you are still lacking knowledge of the reason why cells stay together to
take on a specific form: we can say that the memory of a single Body disappears.
L.P. – Does it stay recorded in the Akasha?
“He” – Yes, in that sense: not so much the physical memory, but rather the experience.
L.P. – If I understand correctly, there is a distillation at the highest level.
“He” – Yes.
L.P. – A while back I read an article that summarized the view of the hereafter held by the Ancient
Egyptians, who spoke about Ka (apparently corresponding to what we call the Subtle Body) and Ba
(corresponding to what we call Psychic Body), and it seemed to me that they made the mistake of
thinking that Ka should survive at all costs, whereas in our view Ka-Subtle Body should disappear
after the Physical Body’s death as soon as possible if the deceased person is highly evolved, because
once its duties are done there’s no longer any point in its existence. Is this correct?
“He” – No, the Subtle Body, as I have said, is closer to the Physical Body. It can also exist autonomously,
but when the process is ‘clean’, it should also dissipate. Its memory is different to that of the Physical
L.P. – Is it shorter than the Physical Body’s?
“He” – It records different data compared to the Physical Body’s memory, which is only functional to the
experience of the Physical Body itself.
L.P. – You said that the Subtle Body can’t exist without the Physical Body, so I have to ask, how is it that it’s
born before and can dissipate long after the Physical Body?
“He” – I’ve already said that ‘born well before’ means that, when talking about it, it appears that it is born
earlier: when launching a plan to live as a physical being, in order to become a human being as you
understand it, both a Physical and Subtle Body are needed, but it is like underwear and outerwear: in
public both are needed. They seem separate, but we all see a body with underwear and clothes – it’s all
one thing. It sometimes happens though, if there’s interference, a sort of ‘messy’ process, there can be
unacceptable defects, especially in the Physical Body, such as when NR rejected that Physical Body
which was subsequently miscarried. It could have been hers, but became a deceased sister.
L.P. – Like trying on an outfit that doesn’t look good and then discarding it for another more suitable one…
“He” – Yes, correct.
L.P. – So the temporal sequence of trying on an outfit, discarding it and choosing another seems a long time
to us, but in reality is short, and then she appeared fully dressed.
“He” – Yes, because if a physical life is chosen, both these things are necessary.
L.P. – In other words, the plan doesn’t actualize until physical life begins and, if there is only the Subtle
Body, it doesn’t even start and is incomplete even when the Physical Body dies, in the event that the
Subtle Body survives…
“He” – Yes, in a way. If someone dies and the Subtle Body remains in a sort of Limbo I mentioned earlier, it
almost always involves a very low level of consciousness that the individual acquired in that life. On
the other hand, when NR’s Subtle Body refused the first Physical Body, it means there was a clear
vision of the plan and compliance to it.
L.P. – Did the Ancient Egyptians influence the Subtle Body’s existence, given their belief that Ka must
survive at all cost and to that end even mummifying Physical Bodies?
“He” – They would certainly have figured out, in particular, the strong connection between Physical and
Subtle Bodies, incorrectly assuming that it was possible to preserve the Physical Body.
L.P. – An interpretive error. But in this way did they actually extend the Ka-Subtle Body’s existence
compared to normal, or did it effectively change nothing?
“He” – I have already talked about the powerful influence emotions have on interactions with a deceased
person’s Subtle Body: they increased the Subtle Body’s tendency to last longer, but in fact this was
not a determining factor in the duration of the Subtle Body itself; in effect, it changed nothing.
L.P. – After the Physical Body’s death, the Subtle Body can continue to exist: in this case, what abilities and
how much decision-making autonomy does it have? Can it do any damage?
“He” – From my point of view it remains ‘by mistake’: by itself it can’t do much, however it could be ‘fed’,
so to speak, by the emotional weight of physical beings who have the need, will, or habit of feeding it,
of which we have already spoken. In a way it continues to survive as long as living beings remember
the particular person. For me it’s not very desirable: it absorbs psychic energy depending on the
purpose for which it is kept alive.
L.P. – In other words, it becomes a sort of low-level thought-form…
“He” – Well, yes, it’s a significant interference in normality.
L.P. – Is it somehow possible to make it disappear, such as with an exorcism?
“He” – It would be enough to just cut off its ‘sustenance’, but there is always someone feeding it, so it’s
L.P. – Does emotion still exist at the Psychic Body level?
“He” – The Subtle Body is of course still infused with emotions, but not the Psychic Body, or to use a better
term, it has ‘higher’ emotions relative to the feeling of ‘belonging’, whereas for you emotions and
feelings are connected: one leads to another.
L.P. – Let’s go to the concept of identity: when we talk about identity, we associate it with our Physical
Body or possibly also the Subtle Body, but as we go ‘higher’ and we encounter group or even mass
identities, does personal identity continue to exist as an infinitesimal part of the overall identity, or
does it completely disappear?
“He” – The term ‘identity’ only refers to the physical: at other levels, even mine, there is a type of
‘temporary identity’, like me right now, but it’s not really what you imagine as ‘identity’. It’s hard to
explain to those who think in terms of time and space: at the moment as I’m interacting with you, I
also am subject to space and time, so to speak, but it’s only temporary.
L.P. – Let’s say that a physical being is like a bee: are you, in your current state, like a hive, or more like
the genus ‘apis’, with a partial or total group identity?
“He” – In your metaphor there is still the concept of widespread unity, more or less: it can be like that, but
it’s really another state, another dimension, in which there are both the hive and the species (apis
L.P. – Returning to the bee analogy, the bee has its own partial identity because its true identity is that of the
queen bee, the identity of which is that of the species. Going up, we get to the genus, and so on up to
the Supreme Being. At which level is multiple identity, is it at the highest or at a branch below the
“He” – Not at the highest: none of you can even imagine the highest.
L.P. – So we refer to multiple identity, although it’s still a partial identity…
“He” – Yes, of course. I understand that it’s almost impossible for you to not think in terms of ‘low’ and
‘high’, but they are incorrect definitions.
L.P. – I understand perfectly what you mean by ‘group identity’ and I agree, so much so that it has brought
me difficulties in my life because it is easy for me to be part of a group and discard my personal
identity within that group. However, since this attitude is considered strange by other humans, I have
to ask questions in a way that others can understand the answers. Returning to the soccer match
analogy, it’s the behaviour of the player whose only aim is for his team to win, rather than drawing
attention to himself as a marketing ploy, possibly to the detriment of his fellow players and match
“He” – This has much to do with the fact that as physical beings – where there is the greatest experience and
division – there are two opposing forces, one being individuality and the other a desire for unity, and
this occurs at various levels, starting from the soccer match all the way to multiple channellings, in
which it takes time to get used to the idea of expressing oneself through a single entity. This applied
also to you and NR: indeed, I am not a separate entity, but part of you both, therefore I don’t have a
L.P. – I have just finished reviewing the English version of the summary of channellings done with EP and
noticed that the channelled Agarthian spoke the truth, totally in agreement with what you say, but
viewed from a slightly ‘lower’ perspective. Indeed, he says that the Physical, Subtle, and Psychic
Bodies exist and that Psychic Bodies can come together based on their similarities to form higher-
level groups and so on, suggesting a pyramidal structure seen from the bottom, and which you instead
suggested viewing from the top. From above we can see the whole panorama, so everything is clearer.
Perhaps, though, the view from the bottom is more natural for those who are unaware of it. What do
“He” – Yes, it’s closer to what people know and therefore common to that type of approach. The risk is
introducing the idea of ‘levels’, which is misleading. I believe it is very important to understand that
other ‘dimensions’ have different characteristics, but are neither higher nor lower. This is an original
point about what we have said, because often in writings by many authors there is the mistaken
distinction between ‘higher’ and ‘lower’, which may help in some instances, but it’s misleading: other
dimensions are simply ‘different’.
L.P. – From this point of view, perhaps the tree diagram is more appropriate: the level of the folders in the
tree are neither high nor low, because the true contents are in the files within them – it’s only a
classification system to make it easier to find specific files. The fact that a Psychic Body joins with
other Psychic Bodies means that it acquires access to information available to these other Psychic
Bodies, and thus to a broader base of information. It’s true that, as you said, physical life is the most
‘limited’ level in existence, but it’s also true that it can be equipped with a Subtle and a Psychic Body
which allow the Physical Body to understand, to ‘fly’ to the most exalted ideas, so it’s not really true
that the physical is the lowest level – on the contrary, it’s the most complete because it has everything,
from the most limitations to the highest levels of awareness.
“He” – That is exactly correct. This insight is typical to Buddhism. In physical life, when we come into
contact with the ‘coarsest’ matter and must obey the laws of time and – less importantly – space, it’s
like being lost, and therefore the human experience is one of the most complex in that it involves the
hardest challenges and greatest opportunities. Indeed, matter ‘blocks’ abilities and adds the limits of
time. Often many lives are needed before remembering, ‘condensing’ acquired experience from over a
thousand, or perhaps only one hundred, lives.
L.P. – Those born into a Physical Body tend to think of their identity as that of the Physical Body itself and
find it enormously difficult to imagine having a multiple identity: it’s a difficult concept to acquire.
People tend to think thus: “I was born, will surely die, and so everything is limited to my life, during
which I am at the centre of the universe. Everything that exists will die with me.” Even introducing the
idea that moving from one life to another is like moving from one car to the next is something original,
because the other cars are all different to the current one and there’s always the need to permanently
hold on to the same identity. With higher awareness we realize that our individual identity is part of a
broader identity: it continues to exist but becomes ‘smaller’ as other available identities increase. It’s
a hard concept to swallow, but it’s fundamental because when seeing things this way, the fear of death
disappears. OBEs are a big help because being able to detach from the Physical Body while
remaining alive teaches us that a part of us that really counts endures after the Physical Body’s death
and we continue to exist and reason even without it. The scientific presentation of the OBE makes this
more credible to those who would otherwise remain sceptical.
“He” – Indeed your (LP) task is to use the OBE to breach the wall of belief that there is only a Physical
Body which is born and eventually dies, disappearing into nothing. Don’t lose heart, because when
that wall is breached the game is over. A complex presentation is not necessary: a pure and simple
presentation of the OBE will knock that wall. At that point there will be a cascade of insights. Humans
have that awareness inside them and in being physical they have forgotten. For some, the memory of
previous lives will become natural, but for those still without this insight, just being confronted with
an experience like the OBE will plant a seed and this is important in itself; once the idea has been
implanted, sooner or later the wall will fall.
L.P. – How is it that Buddhists had such profound insights, but the only description of the two entities
connected to the Physical Body which seem to correspond to the Subtle Body (Ka) and the Psychic
Body (Ba) was left by the Ancient Egyptians?
“He” – It depends on the culture, but it’s not important. What counts is the idea of continuity of the Mind.
L.P. – If we pay attention to what is said by those in an OBE, we start to get the idea that more than one
thing exits out of the Physical Body during the OBE. Analysing this we see that there are two things
and their presence better explains certain phenomena. I wonder how the Buddhists could have missed
this, or simply did not write it down, despite their long experience with OBEs, at least for the Tibetans.
“He” – What they call the ‘Observer’ is the Psychic Body. They missed the Subtle Body. In highly advanced
Tibetan practice it is used, otherwise they would not have the abilities they do while in deep
meditation. I would say that for them it’s all one thing: essentially they don’t distinguish them.
L.P. – Even Judaism distinguishes the soul from spirit, but doesn’t fully explain the meaning of these two
terms, and in fact for Christians the meanings are reversed.
“He” – In monotheistic religions the concept of soul can be compared to the Subtle Body and that of God to
the Psychic Body. (In fact, the distinction between the Subtle and Psychic Bodies is clear when the
OBE is controlled via hypnosis, and not when it happens spontaneously without hypnosis, as the
Tibetans did. Perhaps this explains its absence in Buddhist writings – author’s note).
L.P. – As a matter of interest, what remains of an animal after the death of its Physical Body?
“Light” – The same as for a person: it’s still a living being just having a different experience.
L.P. – Is this why sometimes the Subtle Body of a deceased animal can be seen (as a type of ghost) in the
house in which it lived?
“Light” – Yes.
L.P. – What about the Psychic Body of animals?
“Light” – The same process applies as for humans; indeed, there’s no difference between Psychic Bodies –
the type of Physical Body they were connected to is irrelevant.
L.P. – Does this also apply to plants?
“Light” – Yes, all living beings.
L.P. – What about non-living beings such as rocks?
“Light” – For those too, but they are at a different vibrational level.
L.P. – Do rocks have a ‘group’ Psychic Body?
“Light” – Yes, the whole Earth.
L.P. – Do animals and plants also have a ‘group’ Psychic Body?
“Light” – Yes, it’s not species-specific.
L.P. – Ok let’s move on: is the Physical Body’s exterior appearance determined by non-physical bodies or
by something else?
“Light” – It is determined by genetics.
L.P. – But genetics carries a non-material message, and from where does that originate?
“Light” – Ah, you’re referring to the vibrational part…
L.P. – Exactly.
“Light” – It’s an emanation of the Supreme Being. A being’s Physical Body, its particular features, are
always functional to its specific experience: this is why it assumes specific characteristics rather than
others, or perhaps has disabilities. It is all a reflection of the material and vibrational parts of the
L.P. – What supports the genome’s vibrational aspect, if indeed it exists?
“Light” – It is still an emanation of the Supreme Being. It has no physical support. It is energy – vibration –
which is emanated.
L.P. – So it is not physically measurable.
“Light” – No, even though DNA has a vibrational part which can be measured, because it is a wave – it is
L.P. – We haven’t measured it yet…
“Light” – But this is something you are capable of measuring.
L.P. – It has already been shown (by Montagnier) that DNA emits very low frequency electromagnetic
waves, which can be recorded, then transmitted to the bases comprising DNA and these in turn
assemble themselves into a copy of the original DNA.
“Light” – Each genome is unique, and the uniqueness of each individual person and each organ can be
L.P. – Is DNA a characteristic of every living being in the universe, or are there some without it?
“Light” – It’s not always like human DNA, however all living beings have genetic information.
L.P. – So there is genetic information which transmits itself in a way that is different to the human double
“Light” – Yes, but other species and beings also have genetic information, because they are emanations of
Supreme Entities: there is more than one.
L.P. – You mentioned this before, but are multiple Supreme Entities in the same universe or different
“Light” – There isn’t just one universe, there is the multiverse in which more or less each universe has its
own Supreme Entity, but I can’t see beyond a certain level.
L.P. – You had mentioned this too. If genetic information is as precise as you say and all parts of the
Physical Body are periodically renewed, why do scars remain? After a wound the Body should simply
return to its previous state without marks or defects.
“Light” – Yes, but at your current level you are not yet able to master this ability. You are able to regenerate
but, in terms of your concept of time, this ability will be seen in a few million years.
L.P. – At the moment though, some animals have it and, like lizards, are able to grow new organs.
“Light” – Yes, some animals and species partly have this ability, but you still can’t master it…
L.P. – … and it will be a long time until we can…
“Light” – Within your time framework, yes.
L.P. – Who or what prepares the Physical Body for its physical life and how is the Physical Body itself
“Light” – The Physical Body is an adaptation to the tasks for its ‘spiritual’ requirements. The creation of the
Physical Body’s ‘material life’ is very old and ancestral: it is a cluster of sub-atoms assembled in an
ever more complex way, according to a construction plan, a matrix expressed by Supreme Entities.
L.P. – Who or what prepares the Physical Body for its physical life and how is the Physical Body itself
ASTOR – The physical body is created by the union of two cells. Its preparation is a laborious process: it
doesn’t only involve the normal gestation period - the universe itself participates in it. Before
conception there is a plan shared by the Essence destined to become physical; it also involves
accompanying thought-forms of what it wants to achieve, which are not generated along the way, but
rather are created as the Essence returns to spirit and decides, based on its previous life, what will be
required in the next physical life. Physical lives succeed each other numerically (the 7th follows the
6th but is before the 8th), but they are all simultaneous. An Essence can, however, live multiple lives
simultaneously and in parallel on different dimensional planes, and multiple gestations with their
relative births, on multiple planes. Furthermore, groups of Essences (some of which may remain in
non-physical) can control many physical lives at the same time, each one taking what it needs from
each life, of which there is only one in each dimensional plane.
L.P. – Can you please once again define the word soul, as viewed from our current level of knowledge?
ASTOR – It’s the core of the Essence, effectively a drop of the Supreme.
L.P. – Therefore, once the Physical Body has gone, does the soul always remain as it is, or does it change?
ASTOR – It remains, with the sum of all accrued experiences, but it’s a higher consciousness: it is a naked
consciousness in its purest form.
L.P. – As I understand it, it is the synopsis of everything accrued by physical lives with which it has been
ASTOR – Above all with what it has grown, there has been an evolution – an understanding.
Channelled entity: HE/HIM - Channeler: NR
When asked to describe the overall organizational structure, starting from the Physical Body, to the Subtle
Body and then the Psychic and so on up, He replies that his state is close to what we would term the Psychic
Body, which, if desired, can manifest itself in different dimensions including the physical; however, it is all
one thing which differentiates as it approaches the physical, and these ‘branches’ can have either a different
or the same, identity, it depends on them. Theoretically it may even be just one for all of them, but it doesn’t
happen like that (it’s the pyramid concept, but viewed from above rather than the base, and therefore more
Starting from the presumption of the existence of the Physical Body, Subtle Body, Higher Identity (belt with
bags of lives) and Psychic Body, LP asks about the Subtle Body’s purpose. “He” explains that it’s the
connecting link between the higher-level plan (Psychic Body) and the lower-level one (Physical Body). For
example, when the Physical Body is born the Subtle Body decides whether or not it is suitable to carry out
the predetermined experience. After the Physical Body’s death, the Subtle can either immediately dissolve
or linger if what we call the mental component has a heavy energy consistency (and in some lives it is very
heavy). It remains as long as it is required by the Psychic Body in order to complete the plan of which it is a
LP then asks if the Psychic Body is connected to multiple Higher Identities (or Superidentities, or belts with
bags of lives), or only one. “He” replies that the Psychic Body is able to manage multiple Higher Identities,
even many of them, but usually only manages one, as in the case of LP and NR, but for physical beings it
makes no difference if there is more than one Higher Identity. However, the Psychic Body is part of a
common identity at a higher level, which itself is part of another at an even higher level and so on up the
‘pyramid’ to the apex.
When asked to explain the perceptual differences between the Subtle and Psychic Bodies, “He” explained
that the Subtle is much more individualized (it has the same identity as the Physical Body) and is aware of
far more than we think: we hardly use it and should use it more. It is very sensitive to the weight of our
thoughts; if they were ‘lighter’, it would do more of its job – that is, interfacing with the others and with our
Psychic Body. “He” suggests detaching from physical matter, and above all from ‘mental matter’, which is
closely linked to the physical. The Psychic Body has decidedly superior abilities to the Subtle.
Animals have a Subtle Body, which is much ‘cleaner’ than ours from heavy mental aspects and is only
affected by fear of predators.
A Psychic Body can express the intention to have an animal experience while simultaneously having others
of a different type, possibly even a plant or mineral. Animals enable less structured experiences than
Plants also have a Subtle Body but it is denser than that of animals, almost like their Physical Body. Plants
have less structured experiences than animals. Minerals have a very extensive Subtle Body and even denser
than that of plants, but some of them have a type of boundary: for example, the Himalayan area has a
boundary around it and has a type of mineral identity, a different density from its Subtle Body. That is the
earth’s ‘magic’ point, where Agartha also is.
Minerals have less structured experiences than plants.
Topic: The Supreme Being
L.P. – Does the presumed Supreme Being, if it exists, pertain only to this three-dimensional universe, or all
universes, the multiverse, if that even exists?
Agartiano: It seems like a very silly question, because it’s obvious that a Supreme Being exists that presides
L.P. – So is the pyramid we mentioned earlier only made from entities belonging to our universe, or also
from other universes?
Agartiano: They also come from other universes. The pyramid’s role is to manifest and oversee on various
levels the stationary states mentioned previously.
L.P. – How many levels does the pyramid have?
Agartiano: They can’t be quantified.
L.P. – Is that because there are too many?
Agartiano: There are too many of them.
L.P. – I would like to know if the Supreme Being is also learning.
Agartiano: In a way, yes, because it doesn’t know exactly what it has created.
L.P. – So it has to learn about itself: it knows it exists, but is learning what it is comprised of…
L.P. – Is it curiosity or the need to rectify planning errors the reason that part of the Supreme Being wants
to have an experience?
“He” – (Laughs) That’s a real engineering question, so typical of you! No, the Supreme Being doesn’t need
to rectify anything: it is pure and simple experience. When we mention ‘experience’, we often,
especially adults, think of a theoretical part followed by an empirical part but here, to simplify the
analogy, the experience is like that of a child who lives and absorbs everything without the need to fix
anything. Everything already exists and is to be experienced.
L.P. – Therefore, from our point of view, this means that experiences can also be very tragic because, in
order to experience everything, it must include positive and negative experiences.
“He” – Yes, we’ve spoken about it. Positive and negative, for physical beings, are definitions relative to
pleasure or displeasure, all the way to pain. Intention or a plan need not necessarily be ‘positive’, but
‘negative’ experiences or even tragic ones are not pre-planned nor are they incidental: however they
can occur ‘in progress’ because obstacles are intrinsic.
L.P. – From an engineering perspective, can tragic events be seen as planning errors or simply something
that needs to be lived through?
“He” – Neither: it’s something like ‘should be experienced’, because these events can help to ‘fine tune’ so
that they are no longer needed.
L.P. – Tell me more about the general organization of ‘reality’. First of all, does the Supreme Being – let’s
call it that for the sake of simplicity – have a beginning or did it always exist?
“He” – It did not have a birth, obviously it always existed. In future discussions you need to start at a
simpler level rather than from the Supreme Being because most readers will not be prepared.
L.P. – But we need somehow to understand it, even in general terms, so that it’s clear right from the start.
“He” – Yes, understand the concept, but not talk about it to avoid delving into religion…
L.P. – The second question is: why does the Supreme Being have the need to know? Logically it would seem
that, being the only thing, it can’t ‘see itself’ and in order to know itself it must break itself apart into
billions of parts, all of which can study each other and together study a part of the All. Is this more or
“He” – It is sufficient for all of you, because you have the unavoidable need for everything to have an origin.
L.P. – The issue of a beginning necessitates time, and while I am now able to see things without resorting to
time, this may not be so for others, and so when we talk about the Supreme Being we have to use
imperfect analogies. Instead of using time, it would be enough to think of everything as being in the
present and we simply look at it sequentially. This investigation would be infinite because of the
infinite possibilities. It is however a difficult concept to understand.
“He” – Yes, but otherwise there is the risk of oversimplification. It may be better to start from simpler things
and progress from there: to start from the Supreme Being is perilous because of the risk of meeting
very strong resistance.
L.P. – Can you describe the origin of the All, the Supreme Being? Has it always existed, or did it suddenly
realize itself and from that moment on began its course?
“Light” – It’s difficult to explain, but there is an immense light that has always existed because it is timeless.
Therefore, this Entity has always been there but, through the experiences of individuals, it has become
bigger and has learned. It transforms and expands.
L.P. – And how will it end? Will it stop at some point?
“Light” – I can’t see that far ahead.
L.P. – Ok, this means that you have limits too.
“Light” – Yes.
L.P. – Let’s recapitulate: we see the Supreme Being as one unit, but with many emanations, each of which
has more emanations and so on exponentially up to the most basic level, that of physical life. A type of
pyramid structure that goes down. Is this correct?
“Light” – Yes.
L.P. – And from there it climbs back up towards the ONE, thus forming other pyramids, this time directed
upward. Can there be many of these and can they reach the level of the Supreme Being?
“Light” – There are these climbing up ‘systems’, but the closer to the Supreme Being the greater the loss of
identity; at a certain point there is a merging with the Supreme Being, which is a condensation and
emanation of all experiences of all beings. In basic life forms there is strong individual identity, and
this identity fades with greater proximity to the Supreme Being.
L.P. – Correct me if I’m wrong, but it reminds me of two adjacent sub-atomic particles in freefall in a
vacuum which become entangled if they are close to each other – that is, they become a single entity
while remaining separate. Is it similar to this?
“Light” – Yes.
L.P. – Therefore the pyramids blend together and experiences becomes a single one. The Supreme Being
takes in these situations simultaneously, but new ones are born…
“Light” – Yes, it’s a continuous circle: when an entity reaches the Supreme Being and reconnects with it, a
part of it returns back down and the cycle repeats continuously.
L.P. – So the multiverse is a manifestation of the Supreme Being, but is it the only one or are there others –
from both a material and spiritual point of view? Does the term multiverse only apply to physical
matter, or to the spiritual too?
“Light” – The multiverse is also spiritual.
L.P. – Does the multiverse include all of the Supreme Being, or is there something outside of it?
“Light” – The Supreme Being contains everything.
L.P. – Is there only one Supreme Being, or more?
“Light” – … My knowledge has a boundary; however I do have the impression, so to speak, that there are
multiple Supreme Beings.
L.P. – Multiple Entities like our Supreme Entity… This would implicate the probable existence of a Super-
Supreme Being above all those Entities: a Super-Structure.
“Light” – I don’t know.
L.P. – From what you say, I infer that our Supreme Being is still young…
Entità – Yes, we could say that. It’s all expandable. It isn’t the only Supreme – each Supreme expands…
L.P. – What happens when they come into contact with each other?
Entità – They blend.
L.P. – If the Supreme already knows everything because everything is within it and it has only to
(re)discover everything, does it always continue to play the same computer game it already knows too
well? This would be boring… where is the novelty?
Entità – The path is different every time, because the Supreme travels through again and expands its
knowledge via others’ learning, and these others are always different, therefore the path changes each
L.P. – Others’ learning? Who are these others?
Entità – All the entities and beings who inhabit the universe – the multiverse.
L.P. – So if I understand correctly, there are things within the Supreme that It doesn’t know and discovers
them through Its emanations…
Entità – The Supreme assigns each being a path, but the path of any being is always new and always
L.P. – But what about a being’s free will?
Entità – It depends on its place in the hierarchy: some levels are more ‘free’ than others, but even so, each
being has a pre-determined experience it has to have. Free will can’t ‘override’ a pre-assigned task.
L.P. – If the Supreme Being can break itself into a multitude of ‘pieces’, photos or ‘voxels’, each of which
can be studied one after another in every possible way to acquire ‘experience’, what are these ‘pieces’
made of? Given that consciousness seems to be separate, what is the difference between consciousness
and those ‘pieces’?
“Light” – Every being depends on the Supreme Being and everything flows into It.
L.P. – It seems to me that there is a difference between physical experience and the processing that occurs
of that experience, or am I wrong?
“Light” – Yes, there is a separation: a single being, especially a physical one, has no awareness of what is
‘outside’ nor of where his experience is destined to go, but the Supreme Being is aware of everything.
L.P. – Are they two separate levels, albeit of the same Entity, or is it an integrated whole?
“Light” – It’s all one thing.
L.P. – So the frames and an analysis of the movie they comprise are the same thing…
“Light” – Exactly. Very few humans are aware of this fact.
L.P. – I always wonder about the physical support of experience. If the Supreme Being breaks itself up into
an infinite number of smaller parts to study itself and create a ‘program’, as it were, to examine its
small parts in every way and learn about them, I can see the small parts as distinct from the
‘program’, even though they are part of the same Entity. Although I can picture the physical support
as the small parts, I can’t see any support for the ‘program’ which, if the experience continues, must
exist to record it.
“Light” – It exists, but not in human ‘mechanical’ terms: it’s a type of recording made by the Supreme
Being of all memories and experiences of Psychic and Subtle Bodies, of physical people and non-
physical Entities which return to It. This is its memory.
L.P. – You mentioned those who could be considered temporary workers which the Supreme Being produces
to gather and examine experience, and which are then reabsorbed.
“Light” – That’s right. It’s like an expansion and then contraction of the Supreme Being.
L.P. – I find it difficult to understand how It can expand and contract without time.
“Light” – Yes I know, but I’m unable to explain it in human terms. It’s impossible to translate the concept.
L.P. – Can you think of any kind of analogy?
“Light” – It’s just like a psychic mass which expands and contracts: this is the simplest analogy.
L.P. – I can understand this from the point of view of experience: knowledge expands, but how does
contraction come about – is it the distillation phase?
“Light” – It’s the return. All (simultaneous) experiences of all beings return to the Supreme Being which, in
turn, produces new avenues of experience. This is how it works.
Topic: Spiritual evolution through multiple lives
L.P. – Is the spiritual evolution of consciousness linear, or can it ‘jump’ forward and backward in time?
Agarthian: There isn’t the concept of sequential lives: what counts is the order in which things are learned. He
realizes – and it seems to be a familiar theme to him – that we think in terms of progressive learning
over time, one life after another. What counts, however, is the lesson order, which is not necessarily
chronological as we understand it.
L.P. – I thought so too and I’m glad it has been confirmed.
Agarthian: He reiterates that the most important thing is to learn and, if it doesn’t happen, this wrong
decision will be paid for dearly after death, therefore he strongly urges us to learn, learn, learn…
L.P. – Therefore, if I’m to judge based on my personal experience, we carry with us a strong conditioning
from previous lives which drives us to make choices that lead us along a path we have already
travelled in previous lives. Is this right?
Agarthian: Yes, it’s what he means by ‘learning’: we must always have the attitude of taking in knowledge
to learn and evolve towards ever higher states.
L.P. – How do we explain the different descriptions of the afterlife by people who relive previous deaths in a
regression? It appears as if the encountered reality varies depending on the evolutionary level of the
person who is died. Can you give us more information on what we call the hereafter?
Agarthian: You’ve already answered: it all depends on the person’s spiritual level. A fairly unevolved
person will be very happy just to see deceased relatives. More evolved people go to ‘knowledge
rooms’ or interact with much higher entities.
L.P. – This is all confirmation for me. I have also seen that as people become more advanced, they
themselves can then choose how, why, where, and when to re-enter the physical world. Can he confirm
that those at a lower level re-enter the physical based on external decisions, while higher-level beings
decide for themselves?
Agarthian: Confirmed. We have already talked about it: an evolved person – and you (LP) know something
about this, with respect to two of your previous existences – can decide to learn more, and therefore
suffer more, but this initial big effort will pay off in the future.
L.P. – Given that higher-level beings make their own decisions, who decides for those at the lower level?
Agarthian: It’s partly their own decision and partly guided by entities like himself, who supervise
reincarnation as though writing a book about future events (mentioned previously), suggesting a
sequence of events that are not too difficult to endure but which contains lessons. Some choose
arduous events, but he stresses that they are deliberate choices. It’s like signing a contract that includes
three, four, or five particularly difficult things, but always knowing – in a part of the mind – that it was
voluntary because there is a pre-determined goal to reach.
“He” – Do you remember when I talked about ‘launching an intention’ and having certain experiences? The
continuous subdivision into smaller files is so that determined experiences are lived in greater detail,
without them being classified as either ‘inferior’ or ‘superior’. Launching an intention involving
multiple lives without particular details ensures that the intention remains, but more conditions are
encountered and there is loss of cohesion, giving the impression of slowing down.
L.P. – The following analogy comes to mind: if I want to play a game of billiards, I need to shoot a ball, but
if I want it to follow a specific trajectory, the initial shot could be slightly skewed or the ball’s rebound
from the side slightly irregular, or perhaps the table’s surface is not perfectly uniform, and due to
these possible factors its final trajectory is a little different to what was initially intended. Am I close?
“He” – Not really. What you said applies to the ‘slowing down’ of the plan I mentioned earlier, but I’m
referring to a characteristic of a human’s physical life so closely connected to time which, as we enter
the specifics of life, can sometimes be lost; the matter comprising humans is actually dispersive,
mostly because of time. Therefore sometimes it’s better to remain in a different plane rather than
return to the physical.
L.P. – What about those on the second and higher levels?
“He” – Those are sometimes intermediate levels or even experiences in other stages. For example, in order
to experience the wind it’s not necessary to be human – being a leaf will suffice. This also applies to
mental states, which can also be experienced as a non-human; the human being, which apparently
represents the lowest level, is extremely complex in that it comprises everything simultaneously: mass,
coarse matter, and the maximum abilities of the mind.
L.P. – When we return to the physical, we forget all our previous experiences and our true origins: what is
the real reason for this?
“He” – We’ve already spoken about it. The best process would be to delete the part relating to an individual
life’s story and leave only the learned experience, which is then taken into the broader plan comprising
L.P. – I recall many things from my childhood which I thought or did and which were inconsistent with my
early age, but rather were due to what I had acquired from previous lives. Does this happen to many
“He” – Profound teachings acquired in previous lives – their essence – remain forever when the various
pieces of the broader plan are put in context. If someone was a king in a previous life and in the
current one is a pauper, the memory of privileges is deleted, but there remains, as an example, a view
of things from a higher perspective, which would be the trait of a king, or the ability to handle power,
or even viciousness: it’s not just what are considered to be good qualities that remain. Let’s say he
carries the ability to see things from a higher perspective and to help others: these can be useful even
to a pauper. What remains from previous lives is only what is needed to learn a lesson, or what is
useful, without thinking in terms of good and bad, which are typical human categories.
L.P. – If a ‘previous’ life (in terms of evolution of consciousness) occurs in the future, is it possible to hear
about it during an hypnotic regression, given that in reality it is in the past in terms of lessons
“He” – Yes.
L.P. – While we are in the physical, is it possible for us to somehow know the plan – our own specific
intention? From your point of view the intention involves two Psychic Bodies and their relative Subtle
and Physical Bodies: those of LP and NR. Are there other Psychic Bodies involved in the same plan?
“He” – At this ‘moment’ in time, as we communicate, there are only three of us: me, LP and NR.
L.P. – Are LP’s and NR’s Psychic Bodies only associated with their respective Subtle and Physical Bodies,
or with others, possibly even in other realities?
“He” – The ‘triangle’ I mentioned is already an interaction…
L.P. – I’ll try to explain myself better starting from the top: an original intention initially caused a
branching, then, seeking to better define itself, it further branches out until we reach you, which then
leads to me and NR. Do you have other branches apart from us? If each of your branches has a
Psychic, Subtle and Physical Body, it means that the Psychic Body has a distinct identity like the other
“He” – You, LP and NR, are end branches, the most specific. Right now your Psychic Body only involves
you but it also includes your identities relative to your previous and future lives and, since time does
not exist, we can say it has a multiple identity. Given the specifics you and NR possess for your
current identity, your respective Psychic Bodies at the moment only involve the two of you.
L.P. – Once again I’d like to ask you in what way can individuals learn about their own particular ‘lives
plan’; it would clear up many things, and for us too even though we know a little already.
“He” – It’s not an easy subject and you (LP) are starting to get a glimpse of things: there is a broader
intention which branches like a tree, and we can consider a leaf hanging at the end of a branch as a
single individual or personality. The higher intention is often more complex – for example, I am an
offshoot of a higher intention and I am in a different ‘dimension’ to you, but always part of that higher
intention which involves physical and non-physical reality.
L.P. – Concerning this point here is an analogy which came to mind: let’s suppose someone wants to build a
large ideal city. Initially, they would need qualified people to find a suitable location and evaluate its
environmental impact, then other qualified specialists for the preliminary plan, keeping in mind all the
needs of the city’s residents and then deciding where to put public buildings, parks, roads, and
residential areas. These specialists would in turn consult urban planners for infrastructure, such as
sewers, water works, electricity and communication networks, public transport and goods transport
networks etc. It would also require many planners for buildings, and they would need an army of
suppliers, bricklayers, systems engineers, plumbers, electricians, and so on, all the way to the eventual
inhabitants. It’s a tree structure of project intentions which leads to the end users, those who actually
live the real experience in the city.
“He” – It’s a simplified but reasonable analogy which illustrates the point.
L.P. – Therefore we are like the end users and you are like the project director who manages construction of
the building we are destined to use. Can the end user gain an awareness of his place within the overall
project? If so, how?
“He” – Yes, he can: to borrow from your analogy, it is wrong to assume that life as a labourer is inferior to
that of a manager. The labourer may appear to have a low level of ‘objective’ consciousness, but at a
subtle level he, like everyone else, is always able to connect to something bigger; there are ‘channels’
that allow a type of ‘direct awareness’ rather than travelling the long and torturous path which may
require many lives, and is the one usually travelled. Therefore yes, it’s possible to know it.
L.P. – In other words, the labourer can look up and figure out his role in the building he is making, then
move around here and there and also learn the building’s location in the district, and of the district’s
location in the city.
“He” – This means becoming aware of one’s role and one’s place (also meaning value), but I mean to say
that through his work it’s possible for him to have an insight/revelation. This possibility is intrinsic to
the physical condition, but happens rarely. It is like the enlightenment mentioned by Buddhists, and
can be impromptu and also temporary, therefore unstable.
L.P. – Does enlightenment encompass the three traditional questions (Where do we come from? Who are
we? Where are we going?) or is it an overall view of the universe and of creation?
“He” – With respect to the second: it represents ‘feeling’ the sensation of totality without going through
L.P. – Regarding the ‘lives plan’, some actualize it as we are now, but the plan is structured so that the
overall view is at the highest level of the aforementioned pyramid. At intermediate levels unforeseen
problems could arise, the solutions of which involve a higher level perspective and this entails the
emergence of a side pathway from the pyramid. Is this what you meant when you stated that the
pyramid doesn’t have as regular a structure as would appear at first glance?
“He” – This is an acceptable point of view, but the tree analogy is better – it starts from a seed, grows,
branches, produces leaves, flowers, fruit with more seeds, some of which will fall on suitable soil and
grow into new trees with more seeds, until a forest is created. It’s the most correct analogy as it
includes the tree’s details, its biochemical processes and interactions with its surroundings and other
trees. A plan can remain at the seed stage, but can also develop and give rise to new projects.
L.P. – We can assume that the Supreme Being sees its own knowledge expand forever.
“He” – Exactly. This ‘movement’ is fundamental for the expansion of knowledge, and that’s why the tree is
the appropriate analogy.
L.P. – Let’s suppose there’s a plan which includes 150 lives: at its conclusion everything that happened will
be recorded as well as a summary of those experiences, after which a new plan is created. Does the
new plan use the ‘identity’ inherited from the previous one, or is the identity also totally new?
“He” – I’ll now tell you some things which may appear to contradict what I said earlier, but actually I will
make certain claims and then modify them – we have to advance one step at a time. First of all there is
the necessity to live an experience – but this doesn’t mean the calculation of a specific number of
lives; this then translates into lives that are not necessarily all the same type (and not even necessarily
chronological), which, while they occur, require new solutions because of interactions with other
plans. To imagine a non-chronological sequence of lives in Physical or even other types of non-
physical Bodies is complicated, not to mention the added series of interactions.
L.P. – Is it possible to have lives on Earth or other planets or even non-physical lives?
“He” – Of course.
L.P. – And does the identity I asked about earlier remain, even partially, or does it change? Let me explain:
if the Psychic Body has to have 150 physical lives, it assumes 150 different Physical Bodies, but the
Psychic Body is always the same one. At the end, a new plan begins and there will be a new Psychic
Body having this new experience with new Physical Bodies, but both could have another Psychic Body
in common at a higher level conducting these plans from which the other two derive. So we have one
identity which splits into two, which in turn split into multiple physical identities. Is this idea correct?
“He” – Yes, this can happen and also, in the course of the plan, there can be a change of level by changing
the Physical Body, as it can be necessary. The initial intention can split, with one part comprising 150
lives and the other with 40. For example, I mentioned that NR was a non-physical entity during your
(LP) life in Sardinia 3500 years ago: that too is another level. Furthermore the split pathways can also
intersect. The term ‘identity’ can be too narrow.
L.P. – I will illustrate with an analogy and you correct me if I’m wrong: let’s assume we have an album of
pictures relating to the foundational plan involving me. If I want to understand the plan’s status, I can
look at the pictures one after another, but they are all simultaneously contained in the album and there
is even a small space between them. Is this analogy close?
“He” – This analogy is useful to explain the foundational plan, at a basic level if we only look at one picture
(i.e., one life) and at a high level if we look at them all together.
L.P. – Furthermore each page of the album could be dedicated to a single plan and we could look at them
all to see the entire super-plan. There could be many albums, each of which is designated a super-
plan, and extend it indefinitely.
“He” – The analogy illustrates the point that we need to broaden our view to encompass multiple lives and
multiple plans, but its disadvantage – and I see is also in your mind – is the spaces between each
picture. In reality there are no spaces: lives follow each other without interruption.
L.P. – Therefore lives are all ‘joined’ together and it’s not only physical lives…
“He” – There isn’t a gap, a place-non-place: it’s only the ‘dimension’ that changes (perhaps it’s better to say
‘setting’) and nothing stops. It’s difficult to explain…
L.P. – I also thought of the analogy of the tree framework represented by computer folders, but there is still
a space between ‘files’, which instead can be removed between the album pictures and thus attach
them to each other like lives – the picture changes, but there is no interval. The album analogy seems
to be better. Do you agree?
“He” – The tree analogy has the advantage of simplifying the transition from one level to another, while the
album allows the removal of the gap between pictures/lives: one is valid as far as possibilities are
concerned, the other from a space point of view because in removing the gap between pictures we see
the continuity of different lives. I would like to emphasize though that the ‘succession’ of lives, not
necessarily chronological, is valuable especially to the degree that it gives an awareness of the
intention behind the launching of an experience, the intention – first of all – for the experience itself.
It’s as though experiences, such as multiple lives, compress themselves and give awareness an almost
physical density, and when this density – let’s call it that, as if it were ‘above’, but it’s really ‘inside’ –
has been attained, lives are lived more profoundly. It’s like in that moment all other lives reconnect. In
this sense, sometimes, many lives give a stronger sense of profoundness of connection.
L.P. – So we are talking about lives which were lived a certain way making sense in light of the higher level
of awareness acquired by living other lives…
“He” – Yes, and at that point they become ‘usable’ as if they all existed simultaneously.
L.P. – Ok, quite a complicated panorama… When looking at lives lived as physical and non-physical beings
we come to the concept of ‘dimension’: we have a mathematical concept of dimension and in
analytical geometry we describe our reality using three mutually orthogonal spatial axes (x, y, and z,
two-directional), and one of time (one direction), but we can also make the time axis two-directional
and even add a fourth spatial dimension. It’s not too hard mathematically, but very hard to imagine
mentally. The question is: are we dealing with a mathematically describable ‘dimension’, or a
‘situation’, a ‘state’? For example, is the aforementioned sixth dimension mathematically definable,
or is it only a ‘state’?
“He” – In your state you are unable to define something which you can’t conceptualize – it’s hard to explain.
I have already said that insight is the closest you can do at the moment, because you can’t even define
the origin of insight or intuition, but it’s a connection with something you know exists but can’t
perceive. There is no formula for insight.
L.P. – Let’s change the subject: you were saying that there’s no interruption when moving from one life to
another, but when we die in one life and are reborn into another, even for non-physical lives, do we
carry with us only what is needed, even unknowingly?
“He” – It depends on what type of experience was lived, which can either be physical or not, and of many
types; the strongest disturbances are certainly in the physical. They can also occur at other, not quite
physical, levels, but they are few: at the physical level disturbances are often carried along. If the
transition process from one life to another is ‘clean’, only what is necessary remains because it is part
of the overall acquired experience.
L.P. – What happens in a non-physical life? Can we get an inkling of it?
“He” – It’s very hard, because the term ‘life’ is incorrect.
L.P. – I would imagine it’s a situation in which there is awareness of being an individual… a bit like the
“He” – An individual, yes. For you, I’m an individual, but from my point of view my individuality is much
less pronounced and very different from what you perceive: I could say ‘broader’, but not in spatial
terms as you would understand it.
L.P. – We can also understand it in functional terms…
“He” – Not just that: it’s more than temporal, spatial and functional terms. In a way, it’s as though you are
seeing me from the bottom looking up: you need to somehow ‘limit’ yourselves otherwise contact
couldn’t happen. Actually, from my point of view, I am in a dimension which is not exactly infinite,
but truly extremely vast.
L.P. – Is it possible to pass from a physical life to being an Entity like you, or a more limited Entity?
“He” – As I’ve said, I do not originate from a physical life – I’m something different. Recall the event when,
3500 years ago, NR was an Entity with whom you were in contact: at the end of a physical life we
move on to an energy state that is more ‘subtle’ than the physical…
L.P. – Like the Subtle Body…
“He” – No, because the Subtle Body specifically deals with physical experience. I have mentioned ‘energy
Entity’ because it’s something other than the Subtle Body – it’s a real energy Entity with its own
‘individual dimension’: it’s an energy being having an experience that is anything but transient – an
altogether different thing.
L.P. – But it’s still always limited, meaning that at some point that experience will end and another will
“He” – Yes.
L.P. – Regarding the matter of the ‘3000 lives’, I understand it well enough, but I wonder if the 3000 lives
which I look at all together belong to different Entities (not to mention identities) – that is, do they
involve many Psychic Bodies, or does only one super-Entity have total control over many Physical
“He” – You are asking if the ‘condensing of experiences’ of many Physical Bodies refers to only one
psychic Entity or many, who in turn ‘condense experiences’. I can tell you that there is no difference
between the two, because they are all offshoots of the same plan. It is the core of awareness present in
your current physical life: your psychic level has condensed – synthesized – many experiences
including lives, therefore, as you say, it’s as if it were more advanced.
L.P. – So does this mean that, in the tree diagram which starts from one plan and branches into sub-plans
which further divide until we get to physical lives, I as a physical being can access a sufficiently high
level to understand many many branches/lives, one of which is the current LP?
“He” – We can simply say that your current experience, backed up by your studies and the opinions you
have formed, would not have been possible without having reached the level of awareness we are
discussing. In this sense it’s as if you were ‘seeing from above’. Otherwise you could not have this
view, which you feel deep inside.
L.P. – I feel it and understand it perfectly; I just wanted a suitable analogy so that others can understand
it… The difficult thing to understand is how someone can have access to the summary of such a large
number of experiences, unless they are their own ‘personal’ experiences over many lives. Maybe we
could simply say that I had 3000.
“He” – Usually you all have the wrong idea that you are students who study, make mistakes, repeat the test
and learn, whereas in fact some repeat the same mistakes many times without learning, and some learn
quickly from what transpires. Extending this example fully to include many lives, the principle
remains the same: consciousness expands with learning. Although in your current life you can learn
from your experiences, the summary of many lives involves a different expansion: there is a different
perspective of one’s life and that of others, of the behavioural model. The higher we go, the greater the
number of variables to consider. This isn’t easy to explain because as well as the intellect, it also
involves a physical component which not everyone has: those who don’t have it need to wait, while
those who do have it don’t need to explain it.
L.P. – Is the fact that we don’t remember our previous lives and, in general, who we are and from where we
come, the price to pay for the freedom to make choices in our current life? Would we be less free if we
remembered something, or is there another reason?
“He” – Actually you would feel less free. If the transition from one life to another is perfect, there shouldn’t
be any memories of previous lives in the new one: what is needed is transmitted unconsciously. It’s
possible for someone to remember episodes from previous lives like movie clips, but this happens
when it’s useful for the present life.
L.P. – I have memories of past lives which definitely don’t influence my freedom of choice: they simply help
me to better understand certain aspects of my present life, however they appeared late in life…
“He” – Exactly… Sometimes children have clear memories but they are eventually lost, and this is
necessary so as to not significantly influence their adult life.
L.P. – I’ll quickly ask you a question that interests us. I’d like your opinion on this idea I have about the
absence of time: if we have many experiences that are like different tracks on a huge surface, they can
all be seen simultaneously in a timeless setting. However, if we want to examine them, it has to be one
at a time from beginning to end using a process equal to sequential counting, which we interpret as
time. This infers that time exists when we examine a single life, but does not exist when they are all
examined together. Is this correct?
“He” – Yes, this view is very close to reality, which you can even test.
L.P. – It’s necessarily a simplified model…
“He” – Yes, when you try to explore an experience using your available devices, you inevitably encounter
time. In your circumstances, it’s possible to perceive a ‘different’ time only in an altered state of
consciousness, otherwise it’s impossible.
L.P. – When those lives – those experiences - are all viewed together, it’s a timeless view, however we can
see that one life may be more ‘advanced’ – in terms of consciousness – and another one less so: what
makes them differ without time? Is it something we can feel or see?
“He” – The idea of one life having greater ‘weight’ than another is much to do with acquiring awareness
relative to certain experiences. A while back I talked about a type of ‘condensation’ of experiences
acquired over many lives: at the moment in which this ‘condensation’ occurs – like when you said that
they are all seen together – there is the feeling that one life is further ‘ahead’ than another, meaning
that it has acquired greater awareness, but it is always a perception inevitably connected to the time
factor and its conditioning. The only way to free yourselves from it is through abstraction.
L.P. – Speaking of abstraction, as I understand it, I have a ‘lives plan’. Let’s say it encompasses 15 lives: I
start from the first life and arrive at my final one via an evolutionary pathway. Is this correct?
“He” – Actually it’s wrong, because what you say assumes that one life follows another, but that’s not so…
L.P. – … because they occur simultaneously…
“He” – The concept of simultaneity implies time: we use it to facilitate understanding, but remember that it
is based on time…
L.P. – … because there’s time when we look at a single life but not when we look at them all together…
however all those lives have a journey.
“He” – Yes, there’s a journey. It’s a difficult concept to pass on because for you a journey means a starting
point and an end point, as a numerical sequence. Now, there indeed is a plan: those experiences are
lived through a certain number of lives.
L.P. – If I look at things as a Psychic Body and consider that experience, I am able to contemplate them all
together, even though individual lives occur in different historical periods, but the experience has a
beginning and an end in that the level of awareness has changed. How this happens is hard to
understand, but that is essentially the result. Is this correct?
“He” – Yes, but not necessarily in a single life; it is in the moment in which, in some way, the journey is
perceived. To focus on this concept, think of it in your current life: the end of each day, each event,
has its own value and significance, and could equate to a single life in the plan, but this isn’t always
clear while it is being lived. However, at the end of that experience – it doesn’t matter if it’s after a
month, a year, or ten years – you have a clear idea of the meaning of that experience, that day or that
event. If you broaden the view, you can extend it to include the ‘lives plan’.
L.P. – If I understood correctly, I should see all the lives in the plan as I would see individual events of the
life I’m living: I see it all together from the outside without time, but if I look closely I see it
sequentially. The ‘lives plan’ can be seen in its totality without time, or examined sequentially one life
or one experience at a time…
“He” – Yes, correct, this example is the closest to the concept I wanted to impart.
L.P. – So the Supreme sees all these things together…
“He” – Yes, this is why for some people, experiences or states of consciousness seem to have, according to
some, a thread linking them from start to end, while for other types of experiences there could be, in a
way, what you call ‘enlightenment’…
L.P. – The Buddha moment…
“He” – Yes, a moment in which a door opens to a far greater awareness. In a way, this is also the variety of
the ‘return journey’.
L.P. – But they say that this results in an ‘expansion’ of the Supreme, in which all knowledge and
experiences converge. I have learned that there isn’t just one Supreme, but practically as many as
there are universes in the multiverse. Is this correct?
“He” – Can you clarify that a bit more?
L.P. – If our reality – which to us appears to only have 3 spatial dimensions but actually in an OBE seems to
have at least 4 and possibly more – is comprised of many three-dimensional realities which we call
‘universes’, we then have a multiverse, because a reality with four spatial dimensions is enough to
contain an infinite number of three-dimensional ones. Our universe – or our level of reality, if you
prefer – would surely have a Supreme Entity that creates it through its manifestations: are there other
Supreme Entities in other (perhaps infinite) levels/universes and therefore a Super-Supreme Entity
above them all?
“He” – Yes, if you put it in hierarchical terms, yes, but it is a limited point of view, because it uses a narrow
parameter to describe something far more expansive.
L.P. – They say that, since there is no time, physical lives are not sequential, but rather there is a sequential
learning, so how can we define this type of learning? Furthermore is it possible, for example, to jump
from the middle of one life to the middle of another one, and then return to the first one?
“Light” – This is common, but people are consciously unaware of it because that reality cannot be
L.P. – Are ‘parallel’ lives similar to each other or do they differ substantially?
“Light” – They are similar in that they are all lives, but they are also different; however, an individual’s
learning is not important, it’s the combined learning which is recorded. An individual person is
unaware of this jumping, but it happens.
L.P. – This is new to me. You say that it’s the learning of the Supreme Being that counts rather than that of
an individual, but it seems to me that there is a type of hierarchical structure of the Supreme Entity’s
emanations and that each of us physical beings is actually living a ‘program’ – a ‘plan’ – of lives; a
particular number of lives aimed at acquiring experience for oneself and for the Supreme Entity.
“Light” – The experience is always the Supreme Entity’s: individual people are like pawns – sensors.
L.P. – If emanations are arranged in a type of pyramid structure, an individual learns at the Psychic Body
level from a series of lives…
“Light” – Yes.
L.P. – … then other Psychic Bodies learn from other lives and they can exchange information amongst
themselves and form a type of Super-Psychic Body, and so on…
“Light” – Yes.
L.P. – … If we look at it from above, it’s a pyramid of emanations, but looking from the bottom, the pyramid
arises from successive groupings of Psychic Bodies at ever higher levels. Therefore an individual,
through the Psychic Body, has the experience of many lives available which are not actually his own,
but are under the control of other Psychic Bodies.
“Light” – Correct, but those having this experience are unaware of it because to them everything feels like
it’s their own.
L.P. – At the physical level I can well understand this illusion.
“Light” – Yes, it is an illusion.
L.P. – It means thinking of one’s own identity as permanent, and this is fundamental: it’s actually very
difficult to convince people to renounce individual identity and acquire that of the group.
“Light” – Correct: everyone has to have this feeling of individual identity and must live it as such, because
it’s those above who collect all the illusions and condense them.
L.P. – Given that there are many physical lives arranged in sequence, is this sequence situated at the level
where the Psychic Body learns, or is it totally unrelated?
“Light” – It’s learning by the Psychic Body, but it’s also of a group of beings which it directs.
L.P. – There are also many connected Psychic Bodies…
“Light” – Yes.
L.P. – In each physical life the experience of previous lives has to be left behind…
“Light” – Yes.
L.P. – Why? What’s the real reason?
“Light” – An individual’s experience is not important, and he/she does not need to know about having to
start more or less from scratch each time and travel a new path, otherwise there would be
contamination from all the other knowledge. Only the Supreme Entity can synthesize it all.
L.P. – It seems to me that each physical being carries within him/herself, albeit unconsciously, a legacy
from other lives.
“Light” – Yes, because it’s not possible to totally delete them.
L.P. – So a physical being is influenced by other lives…
“Light” – Yes, and more ‘receptive’ people carry more memory, however this memory isn’t very useful, and
in some circumstances things are better without it.
L.P. – Is it correct to think that it leads to particular choices, but that it’s better not to know this?
“Light” – I’ll say yes, because each experience must be lived ‘in itself’, but it depends on how much what
the human thinks is his past influences the current life experience. In reality each life has tasks to be
performed and should simply just be lived as such; the less baggage, the better.
L.P. – You said there can be jumps between parallel lives…
“Light” – Yes, but not for the purpose of an individual’s learning: the individual has no importance. It
doesn’t matter if he/she knows about these jumps and remembers them, because all experiences are
funnelled into the Supreme Entity.
L.P. – But would a person who has these jumps – even if unaware of them – notice a change in
“Light” – That individual is not important. Humans believe that an individual’s awareness is very important,
but it isn’t.
L.P. – This isn’t an easy thing to tell other humans…
“Light” – No.
L.P. – Given that time doesn’t exist and our various physical lives are parallel, how can we say that one
experience precedes another? Are they ordered?
“Light” – Order is a simple way to ensure humans have a sense of progression, but they really all occur
simultaneously. There is constant jumping from one to another, from one dimension to another, but an
individual is unable to maintain this situation, therefore needs the illusion of ‘before’ and ‘after’, but it
is a catalyst for a person to learn within that space. The concept of time is fundamental for humans,
otherwise they would be blocked and trapped.
L.P. – In fact, when an experienced has finished (also in physical life) we relive it as an instant, and not
arranged over a period of time.
“Light” – Yes, correct, but humans can’t fully grasp these concepts: their understanding only reaches a
certain point – they are not programmed to understand them.
L.P. – But they can do a lot…
“Light” – Indeed, but they need the concept of time: it is indispensable for humans.
L.P. – Since all lives are simultaneous, is there also a relationship between a ‘current’ life and what we call
‘future’ lives? In terms of experience can they actually be earlier?
“Light” – Yes, of course. In order to learn, humans need this sense of relativity.
L.P. – But this means the future can affect the past…
“Light” – Experience is circular. A future event on the way can be in the so-called ‘past’ and yet the
opposite is also true, because past and future don’t exist.
L.P. – If we exclude time, what determines the rate at which experiences are read? One experience is
followed by another according to a criterion we call time.
“Light” – Everything is directed to the Supreme Entity: it’s humans who need time in order to move from
‘before’ to ‘after’. This is why there must be very few memories (of past lives), otherwise progress is
impeded, not in terms of perceived time, but rather in terms of experience that is functional to the
Supreme Entity’s learning.
L.P. – If the Supreme Entity ‘learns’, it means that ‘after’ – not in terms of time – it knows more than
‘before’: it goes from x to x+1. Is this true?
“Light” – Yes, its level of learning increases.
L.P. – So there’s a succession with respect to learning levels…
“Light” – Yes, we could say that; it’s a spatial increase, an expansion.
L.P. – As I understand it, there is an increase in space-time bits…
“Light” – … and others are put back into circulation: the learning ‘mass’ increases.
L.P. – Is this expansion infinite or finite?
“Light” – It goes on forever, however I can’t see beyond a certain level of expansion – I only know that it
L.P. – This expansionary trend allows us to at least establish a priority criterion.
“Light” – Yes.
L.P. – This is important. In practice we denote time as the sequential reading of frames in a movie.
“Light” – Yes.
L.P. – Who determines the reading rate of the aforementioned frames?
“Light” – It’s a mental illusion useful for the path of the movie viewer. Images and memories are, in a way,
‘programmed’, so that a person has only one specific experience. He/she has some leeway within a
particular life, but is limited to a particular experience. In the course of the experience information
may also arrive from other realities and other lives, and the journey continues. It’s a constant
L.P. – We have said many times that death, like birth, is only a transition from one type of life to another,
potentially from a physical life to a non-physical one; so then if lives follow each other with no
discontinuity, when and where is each life’s experience processed?
“Light” – Consciously time is missing, however the spiritual part records what was lived and it’s not that
one life ends and another begins – this concept of time doesn’t exist, it’s wrong, and actually
everything is simultaneous. The spiritual aspect is a matrix that records and processes the different
levels of earth life in different situations and eras which are perceived as different; the same goes for
L.P. – By ‘spiritual aspect’ do you mean the Psychic Body?
“Light” – Yes, the Psychic Body. To consciously revisit a previous life there are regression techniques with
which you are familiar, or visualization techniques used by some societies that have maintained more
advanced psychic abilities; humans, at higher levels, also have this ability…
L.P. – What do you mean by ‘more advanced psychic abilities’?
“Light” – The ability to see different lives, different levels of reality, typical of those who are usually
considered to be ‘enlightened’ – people with advanced psychic abilities who can see more levels of
reality, are aware of them and therefore make greater leaps in consciousness.
L.P. – Regarding those who more easily see multiple levels of reality, do they essentially contact their ‘I’
located in those levels of reality?
“Light” – Yes, but everyone does. Indeed, all of us live in multiple levels of reality. Dissociation is a
requirement – for humans and other beings too – however the soul (Psychic Body) lives on multiple
levels, in multiple Physical or non-physical Bodies: it’s always the same being divided into parts.
L.P. – How do we explain the succession of physical experiences in a framework without time?
“Light” – A single being lives on multiple levels. For you all it’s like a three-dimensional effect so that
multiple humans, in different levels, can share the same ‘soul’, the same consciousness, and therefore
all live the same pathway. What are called ‘past lives’ are really only different and simultaneous
experiences of the same consciousness, which can be living a life in 2020, one in 1030, one in 567,
one in 3050, and so on; they are not in chronological order, but the level of consciousness attained in
each is compared to the others. It’s a relative judgement what is constantly expressed and influences
life and the choices of all beings belonging to the same consciousness – the same ‘soul’.
L.P. – Why is it that in each new life or life experience we have no memory of all our previous experiences
or of our true nature?
“Light” – Because it’s not useful: the important thing for each life is the experience of that life, the tasks it
has been assigned. To remember everything is of no use to these needs, and would indeed be
disadvantageous if an individual were to know about the potential influence of other lives from the
L.P. – How do we explain the succession of physical experiences in a framework without time?
ASTOR – It’s like a gap created between the universe’s dimensions. Once the gap is crossed we tap into
periods which you call ‘historical’, which succeed each other even though they are simultaneous – that
is, they are positioned synchronically on the same plane.
L.P. – Why is it that in each new life or life experience we have no memory of all our previous experiences
or of our true nature?
ASTOR – Because the Essence has the experiences within itself, but the moment it enters into matter and
matter is born to begin its planned route, it is mandatory for it to lose most of its memory despite
retaining a consciousness which is the sum of previous lived experiences, and which unconsciously
influences choices made in the new life. All experiences determining growth and hardships remain
fixed within consciousness: it is the synthesis of all previous experiences.
L.P. – We were saying that a single life can be likened to one movie out of many: in practice there is a
matrix within which many paths are possible and each is interpreted as a life. How many dimensions
does the matrix have (in the technical sense – for example our environment has three spatial
dimensions and one of time) and what comprises its ‘points’?
ASTOR – The matrix has countless dimensions. I have previously shown a lattice with thickly woven
intersecting paths containing countless sequences of existence. Each path contains countless
intersecting sequences which are accessible whenever there is a need to know what you call the
L.P. – If the Supreme has split itself into many billions of ‘parts’ and then proceeded to explore each one or
groups of them, the framework you mention will be made of these ‘parts’…
ASTOR – You talk about ‘parts’ as if they were matter, but they are not, they are energy which can become
matter, but they are not actually matter.
L.P. – Multidimensional energy – how wonderfully complicated! Infinite points of energy manifesting into
an extremely high number of dimensions, giving rise to infinite possibilities…
ASTOR – Exactly.
L.P. – If lives occur in parallel because there is no time, how can there be ‘influence from previous lives’?
For example, by the age of 4 Mozart could play the piano well enough to perform in public: we may
presume that this ability was acquired by him in another life. Is this correct?
ASTOR – Yes, but beware of confusing the Essences with Consciousness: if you watch a sequence like a
movie made of many images of what is happening or has happened or will happen, do not confuse it
with the Essence that is living that sequence and contains a psychic memory residing in
L.P. – If I understand correctly, this Essence can interpret the images in a different way depending on the
level of its Consciousness. Is this what you wanted to say?
ASTOR – This too is possible, but weren’t you asking how an essence can keep the sum of its experiences?
L.P. – To clarify this, let’s suppose someone in a physical life ‘remembers’ one of his/her other lives, which
can be considered to be ‘previous’: can this occur because there is communication between
(simultaneous) lives through their common Psychic Body, or is it only an illusion?
ASTOR – No, this occurrence can be attributed to various factors: one can be the current evolutionary level,
in other words the advancement in consciousness obtained from past lives; another is if a shock
reawakens ancestral memories, or, in other cases, emerging memories could be pre-planned because
they are needed for that particular life. They can also be due to close relationships with Guides – help
from the spirit world if necessary to a person for a pre-determined path.
L.P. – But can an individual – like me for example – have had this input from multiple lives? How many
lives are we talking about?
ASTOR – The number of lives is not important, it’s what has been learned from each one. You can live a
life without having understood what you have lived, or the reason for that event or hardship or joy.
The important thing is always understanding. Without understanding, a current life remains at the
same level as the previous one, and there is no advancement.
L.P. – You were telling me that an individual is part of a soul and, upon reaching a certain level, he/she can
rise further. At the end of what I call the ‘lives plan’ what happens to this individual? Is there a union
ASTOR – There are several possibilities: he/she can remain in the Spirit world, and there are other
possibilities even there, or he/she can decide to carry out special projects, or reunite with purer
essences (of one’s own level, that is), but the individual never stops and is always working.
L.P. – I understand and wish it for myself, but is it a free choice by the person who has reached this stage?
ASTOR – Sometimes it is advised, but it is still a free choice.
L.P. – Therefore at that point an individual personality can either continue to exist or unite with others to
become part of a group personality, is that correct?
ASTOR – It’s correct and one can even choose to guide or teach other essences, there are many possibilities:
once the Physical Body has been shed for good, or as you say, the cycle of lives has finished, there are
countless possibilities from a range so vast it can’t be put into words.
Channelled entity: HE/HIM
LP asks if it makes sense to say that we have various lives in succession and therefore can use the term
‘Common Identity’, which is like a belt with many bags hanging from it, each one containing a life. “He”
says yes, an intention to become physical is never only for one life, but rather a sequence of lives
representing a consistent overall experience, a proper plan involving several lives or many tens of them. The
number of lives depends on both the plan’s degree of complexity and the speed of learning of the entity
having the experiences. LP asks what happens to those who absolutely refuse to learn, regardless of number
of lives, and “He” replies that this circumstance never arises because the intention to become physical
necessarily includes the desire to learn: it may appear that a person is not learning, but it’s only an
impression, and will simply require more lives, it’s all part of the plan. Nobody can refuse to learn and be
deleted, each plan always contains the desire to return to the One.
Asked if a villain, after having examined his life after death and realizing his errors, is asked to reincarnate
into a real world that is inferior to the previous one, similar to the religious idea of hell, “He” replies that
hell is purely an invention, and adds that at the moment of death this person sees a summary of his latest life
and then, in a way, it ‘condenses’ into more or less very pure thought, and this will be inherited at the
beginning of the next life (humans call it baggage, but it’s a type of accumulated energy), as if the plan had
been damaged, and this is not necessarily felt in the next life (contrary to the notion of karma, which
requires linear time). However, that accumulation of negative energy will be cleaned out, even if it needs
time and effort.
LP states that it seems that in life there is a task that also involves other humans, but that those others seem
mainly low level beings, and “He” answers that in reality there is never a task for others: it is always for
oneself, but its conclusion also involves others, and so there’s no need to emphasize helping others as they
inherently help themselves and are helped. Indeed, at a high level we are all connected, even if at this level
we are separate: ideas circulate automatically. LP then asks why this task involving ourselves moves so
slowly: our lives are brief and we need more speed… “He” replies laughingly that it seems slow to us, we
want to see our rewards quickly.
The Psychic Body can bring about another Physical Body while its Subtle Body is still active, and when this
happens (not rarely) the new physical life carries many problems from the past and this life often occurs
(contrary to the usual, where successive lives take place in different environments for greater experience)
within a particular circle of people, family, and friends, which is the same from which the active Subtle
Body is derived (refer to Family Constellations, which apparently involve people who carry with them
serious problems from a previous life in which they were, for example, their own grandparent or great-
grandparent). These cases are not rare, as at death people find it difficult to detach from material things and
When asked if it’s plausible for a group of ‘friends’ to reincarnate together with different roles in various
lives, “He” explains that it is possible if their high level plans ‘match’ or are similar in one or more lives. It’s
more likely that the impression of having known someone in another life is, instead, due to similarities in
their respective plans: it’s the intentions that count, if they are similar.
To the question of whether there exists a fourth entity – the ‘lives plan’ – which can be schematized as a belt
with small bags hanging from it, each of which is the experience of one life, or rather what remains of these
lives, and the contents of which can be ‘read’ via regressions or the OBE, “He” explains that when the
intention for the ‘lives plan’ is launched, from its specific dimension, it means the intention to live an
experience. This could have stages – such as various lives – but it can encounter obstacles or undergo
acceleration, and therefore could be more or less of long duration and not pre-conceived. There is a certain
freedom, which is demonstrated depending on practical conditions. The main objective is the plan – the
experience – which has the instant of launching and that of re-entry, and involves the Psychic Body. During
the sequence of the planned lives (not necessarily chronological) it is possible to access the experiences of
previous lives, either via regression or an OBE, if the current life requires access to those experiences. It is
also possible to tap into a higher, vibrational level – that is, the synthesized version of all previous
experiences within that ‘lives plan’, as long as it is useful and not destabilizing.
During a past life regression when the death of a particular life is relived, descriptions of what happens after
separation from the Physical Body vary, corresponding to the deceased’s level of awareness. LP asks if this
process is always the same and just interpreted differently depending on a person’s beliefs. “He” explains
that the process is the same, but the deceased person projects her own beliefs onto what is happening and
hence all the different descriptions. Matter and thoughts associated with it are very coarse, and also greatly
influence the process’s interpretation post mortem. The process is the same for everyone and consists of
‘cleaning out’ physical matter, which is very ‘heavy’ even in the vibrational sense – including associated
thoughts – and is a difficult obstacle to overcome. The ‘cleaning’ makes thoughts and matter more refined.
The accounts differ due to the different personal interpretations, but post mortem there are effectively
different procedures depending also on how the deceased is carrying out his particular ‘lives plan’: some
want a break and others want to return to the physical immediately.
Those who are excessively ‘bogged down’ in a life that is decidedly ‘heavy’ usually return to the physical
quickly and in the same environment of family and friends, and in this case the sense of mutual recognition
is particularly strong.
So-called ‘travel companions’ – people we encounter in life who seem very familiar – do exist and we notice
them because their vibrations are closer to ours than that of others: multiple ‘lives plans’ can often be part of
a broader plan, and therefore intersect even many times throughout various lives and give rise to similar
situations which we interpret as being separate from each other, although they may not be in reality.
Topic: After death experiences
L.P. – What exactly happens at the moment of death? I’ve heard many accounts, but would like as detached
and objective a view as possible. What happens?
ASTOR – Depends on the level of the essence (i.e., the deceased)
L.P. – Right, so what can happen? Let’s start from the basics and go from there.
ASTOR – Those who haven’t reached the correct level of consciousness find themselves projected randomly
into a tunnel. There may be fear, or a feeling of destabilization, and at this point fear may block the
L.P. – In this case what happens?
ASTOR – They remain blocked in an intermediate dimension and live in this type of prison for an infinite
L.P. – Are religious beliefs also carried along?
ASTOR – If they are present, yes.
L.P. – So this reality can become hell like that of Christianity, or paradise like that of Allah, or something
ASTOR – That is another stage. What I’m referring to now is a dimension without colours and where the
essence may have great difficulty understanding its new state.
L.P. – So they remain in that state, and while there can they be reached by physical beings via mediums?
ASTOR – Sometimes. In the situation I’m talking about the essence is suffering: you asked me to start from
the basics and I’m replying. This situation is not very common.
L.P. – What is the most common one?
ASTOR – The most common one is the next one.
L.P. – Let’s call it the second stage…
ASTOR – In the second stage, as you call it, essences find themselves in a dimension of light where they
embark on a path of awareness of what they have lived, reclaiming previous knowledge.
L.P. – Meaning that they have available all memories regarding previous lives?
ASTOR – Let’s say they have available an understanding of those lives.
L.P. – A summary of previous lives…
ASTOR – A summary, exactly. In this dimension, in which I will now accompany MG for a glimpse, some
journeys will be described.
L.P. – Good.
M.G. – I find myself in a white light, wrapped in something that is calming and makes me feel at peace.
There’s a light that gradually becomes more tangible, visible, and golden. I keep walking and a mist
clears, and I can see landscapes. Now I’m moving through a weaker light, it’s blue and reminds me of
the seafloor, even though there’s no water. I continue, still at peace and curious. I don’t understand
where I am… I feel an attractive force and it’s like someone is telling me to proceed. I’m told that here
essences need to stop for a while, to unburden themselves of the after-effects they are still carrying
from their journey. I don’t know… some impulses, I see small electric shocks.
L.P. – Are you reliving your life?
M.G. – No, I’m travelling along a stage after passing over (death). Astor is with me, but is not interfering,
just observing me living this stage.
L.P. – He said it clearly, he’s making you live through what would a deceased person of a particular level.
What else happens?
M.G. – I’m approaching an opening; I see lots of light, I’m going through this opening and am flooded with
infinite joy. It’s amazing, there are many colours and I see a pale blue light at the end, then something
like waves of colour going through me and the waves are different colours.
L.P. – Is there a meaning?
M.G. – I think they are part of the Subtle Bodies which for a certain time accompany the separation from the
Physical Body. The light is getting stronger and the colours are gone. It’s odd: I feel as if I’m walking
along a road and seeing other essences ahead of me.
L.P. – Are they friendly? Do they notice you?
M.G. – I’m watching them, they seem not to notice me, it’s like a procession.
L.P. – Do you know who they are?
M.G. – No, they are other essences who have probably completed the journey. Now I’m told I can choose:
there are several paths. One can take me to essences I know, another to a place which is called the
L.P. – Is this the Akashic Record?
M.G. – Something like that. Another road can take me to a school for Guides. Another to a similar
dimension which is only accessible to those who have reached a certain evolutionary level and where
they will pause briefly before continuing onto their next choice.
L.P. – Are there any other paths?
M.G. – Not for now.
L.P. – What are the advantages and disadvantages of each pathway? At least on principle, it seems like the
latter is the highest level, but it implies the desire to proceed, to learn, to alter a part of one’s thought.
M.G. – Some of these pathways involve sacrifice, some are only for learning, others for planning.
L.P. – Planning what?
M.G. – Successive physical lives and also missions to accomplish.
L.P. – What is the sacrifice for? To acclimate?
ASTOR – When an essence chooses a path in which the task – often quite arduous – can bring about great
benefit to itself and other essences, it requires sacrifice. Sometimes the plan can be for pain and
suffering. For an essence who has achieved a medium to high level of evolution to leave the Spirit
world and choose a physical life involving much work could well mean suffering. This new suffering
contains within itself more evolution: this, so to speak, is the prize.
L.P. – Is there anything to say about the second stage?
ASTOR – Nothing that stands out.
L.P. – Let’s look at the third stage. Is MG still being lead or is it you who is talking?
ASTOR – I can try to lead MG.
L.P. – Let’s try. Who is this third stage for?
ASTOR – For more evolved essences.
L.P. – In this case what happens at the time of passing?
M.G. – I see a large dome, very strange…
L.P. – Can you describe it?
M.G. – At the dome’s centre there’s a vortex in which something gaseous, like smoke, is descending.
L.P. – Where is it going?
M.G. – I’ll try to go in.
L.P.– As you go in, is the vortex turning clockwise or anticlockwise?
M.G. – No, but… it’s not exactly a vortex, it’s like… I can’t explain it, like a hole and this… is sliding down
from all around. I’ll try to enter.
M.G. – I’m inside.
L.P. – How do you feel?
M.G. – Very strange…
L.P. – In a good way or bad?
M.G. – Good, but I’m like… I don’t know… I’m all together.
L.P. – Do you mean you’ve lost your individual identity and acquired a broader multiple one?
M.G. – Yes. It feels hard, because I no longer have a single consciousness. I feel what can be called…
love? ... I don’t know… it’s a strange sensation in which I feel a deep sense of peace.
L.P. – Are you getting knowledge from others?
M.G. – Yes, it’s very hard to explain… I feel like I’m made of clouds.
L.P. – Amongst other clouds?
M.G. – Yes, one cloud.
L.P. – Is this cloud bright?
M.G. – Yes, very.
L.P. – Then ask yourself or others if that cloud represents the Supreme or one of Its parts.
M.G. – No, they tell me the Supreme is even more different.
L.P. – So what is that part in particular?
M.G. – It’s part of an evolved consciousness, a consciousness that has acquired the knowledge of the
L.P. – Knowledge in the sense that it knows the Supreme, or that it has the Supreme’s knowledge?
M.G. – I’m told it’s a preview of what constitutes the nucleus of the Supreme.
L.P. – So, if I understood correctly, if this higher consciousness moves further up, it could unite directly with
the Supreme. Correct?
M.G. – Yes.
L.P. – As I understand it, the identity of this higher consciousness is comprised of many identities: it has
acquired the experience of millions or billions of identities. Does evolution therefore consist of always
increasing one’s experiences in terms of numbers?
M.G. – Right now I am being made to understand that the dimension, or state, in which I am is necessary…
it is an exchange. Now I see from the centre of this cloud thing… how can I describe it… like an
electric tangle, a rope of many colours changing from blue to purple to white, and so on becoming
transparent…it’s beautiful – until they become iridescent.
L.P. – What do these colours mean?
M.G – It’s like the cosmic consciousness flowing towards the Supreme bringing with it the knowledge of the
sum of lived experiences. The Supreme feeds itself a bit on this consciousness and at the same time
energy comes down from the Supreme. It’s very strange to describe, and this thing, this rope, seems to
go up and down.
L.P. – If I understand correctly, the Supreme acquires knowledge and experience and gives out energy
needed for more experiences. Correct?
M.G. – Yes, it’s exactly like that.
L.P. – So you are describing an experience at the level of thousands, millions, billions of experiences put
together, but if we start from the bottom, at the simplest level, an essence probably consists of one
experience only, then three, four, tens of experiences, then one hundred, then a thousand, ten thousand,
one hundred thousand, a million, and so on, as it progresses. Is this the mechanism?
ASTOR – This is it, exactly.
L.P. – Is there more to say about this third phase? Do essences from this level reincarnate?
ASTOR – More rarely, as guides for other essences. This level may also contain guides who no longer
become physical but who nevertheless guide essences, while remaining in transcendence.
L.P. – Anything more about this?
ASTOR – For now I don’t know any more.
L.P. – Is there also a fourth phase, or does it stop at the third?
ASTOR – There is a fourth level, but at the moment I can’t access it. It’s a higher level and to access it I
need to travel further along the path.
L.P. – If within you are the experiences of many essences, how many of them are there?
ASTOR – Countless of them.
L.P. – However there’s a level in which there are even more experiences, as I understand it.
ASTOR – Yes, and above all it’s the evolutionary level that stands out, and the understanding acquired
during physical lives.
L.P. – Is there any more to add about post-mortem events?
ASTOR – Not for this level, no.
L.P. – I’ll ask another question: can you please talk about the organization of reality encountered after
death, is it a type of huge matrix with many routes, or something else, like a multiple reality? What is it
ASTOR – Yes, there are the routes I mentioned earlier.
L.P. – Those are three or four main paths, but they occur within a reality: what is this environment like? Is it
separate from consciousness or does consciousness itself represent the environment?
ASTOR – Consciousness represents the scene.
L.P. – Are the scenes common to many consciousness or just one?
ASTOR – Both of the above.
L.P. – It reminds me of what happens in dreams compared to what we encounter in normal life, in which
reality is the same for everyone, whereas in dreams it is purely our own. Is this correct?
ASTOR – Yes, and in interactions with other essences it is easy for this reality to merge.
L.P. – Like in our daily lives.
ASTOR – Yes.
L.P. – So you’re saying that our reality is a daily one pertaining to all of us, but which we create. If I
understand correctly, if our reality is undesirable it’s our fault.
ASTOR – Yes, exactly. This also depends on level of consciousness, and which paths are chosen amongst
those in this second level: if I choose to meet familiar essences again I will live one type of reality, if I
choose study I will live another and so on.
L.P. – From what I understand, it will always be a reality in which those in a higher level will find
themselves immersed in many lower level essences. Is this correct?
ASTOR – No, there are various stages: a higher level essence can decide whether or not to remain with
lower level essences, otherwise it will be with similar essences.
L.P. – Then you need to explain to me why it is that I’ve chosen to be involved with such low level essences.
ASTOR – We’re talking about two different things: I’m explaining to you what happens when you arrive in
this dimension, not on Earth in the physical.
L.P. – So you’re talking about when we are already non-physical, whereas I thought you were referring to
ASTOR – With respect to your own reincarnation, the answer is obvious: you came into the physical with
the task of teaching souls, essences…
L.P. – … who don’t seem predisposed to learn…
ASTOR – These are the difficulties associated with matter.
L.P. – Not too pleasant… Anything else to add?
ASTOR – Just that while you’re in the physical you also evolve and your difficulties, including that which
you mentioned, require effort which makes you evolve.
L.P. – I’ll return to a subject we’ve discussed, but I want to hear about it from a level with less conditioning:
during an out of body state, descriptions of it are much like a reality with 4 spatial dimensions and one
of two-directional time, in which there are infinite three-dimensional realities simultaneously present
and an individual three-dimensional reality can be seen in its entirety or in its details, or from the
inside without needing to move, and it is also possible to go forward and backward in time. Is this
ASTOR – It is close enough: we must understand our limitations.
L.P. – I understand. One more question. With respect to Near Death Experiences (being pronounced
clinically dead and then returning to life with memories of that experience), which are usually
forgotten by those who have them, is there a way to help these people remember them? Would an
hypnotic regression work? How is it possible for NDE researchers to know if someone who doesn’t
talk about it has had such an experience?
“He” – The heart of the matter is that those who report them do so because they want their experience to be
known. Those who don’t remember don’t want to and they don’t need to, due to fear, but mostly
because talking about it is not part of their plan: they are not ready, because those who do report it
make a big leap in consciousness which – as you know – totally changes their perception of reality.
Topic: Mediumship and Channeling
L.P. – Is it right to communicate with these non-physical beings and can it be done easily?
Agarthian: Yes, you must: you mustn’t refuse.
L.P. – How can we communicate? By using mediums or are there other more reliable methods?
Agarthian: Just use the mind, what we call telepathy. Mediums have the particular task of manifesting
certain low-level energies for people of low intelligence like humans, in such a way as to remove
doubts about certain facts and principles for people in sittings.
L.P. – Can we trust presences which appear during sittings with mediums? Are they positive or mostly
Agarthian: If the medium’s mission is to manifest positive ideas and energies, then yes. Unfortunately many
only do it for personal satisfaction, curiosity, or money, and this attracts what humans call ‘negative
energies’, because the core intention is not knowledge and/or love, but something divergent from
L.P. – Given that over time the Subtle Body virtually disappears, do mediums connect mostly with Subtle
Bodies or other entities?
Agarthian: They deal with the Psychic Bodies of other entities.
L.P. – Do these entities reside in spatial dimensions different to the usual three, or are they a different
Agarthian: They are in other dimensions.
L.P. – So their reality differs from ours by only one spatial dimension…
Agarthian: One or two.
L.P. – Regarding contacting beings without a Physical Body, what is the highest level that can be reached
through these contacts?
Agarthian: Up to the maximum manifestation point of the Psychic Body. It is not possible to go beyond a
certain level because entities are at such a dematerialized level that they can no longer have psychic
L.P. – Can relatively easy contact with other dimensions be made only psychically, or also in a tangible
Agarthian: For the moment, only psychically is allowed, through the phenomenon of entanglement. Much
time must pass before those ‘above’ can establish physical contact.
L.P. – Why is it that some people but not others regularly meet deceased people? For example, some who
have passed on and were close to me have appeared in my dreams only once or twice at most.
Agarthian: In your case it’s because you don’t remember.
L.P. – Maybe I sleep too deeply.
Agarthian: It’s because you have other interests. Mediums, however, have open ‘windows’ in their minds
and can more easily establish contact with the deceased.
L.P. – Maybe I don’t need contact with them, whereas others do. Is that right?
Agarthian: It can go both ways, either you need the contact, or they do. If they don’t feel the need to get
involved in your daily matters, you won’t see or hear them. EP gave the example of her grandmother,
whom she has seen many times, and he confirmed that her grandmother – who died prematurely –
wanted to help her granddaughter through a particular phase of her life.
L.P. – So back to an old question: mediums claim that contact with various entities and even to sense the
presence of a living person requires telepathy. Is this true or is there more to it?
Agarthian: It’s simultaneously true and not true – telepathy is required as well as a deliberate use of the sixth
sense of which we spoke earlier.
L.P. – … so a group sense…
Agarthian: He says yes. Like when we sense the presence of someone we know without seeing them. Like
when we sense being observed and looking up we find we are being watched.
L.P. – I’ve already asked this question, but I’d like a more complete answer: are the deceased people we
contact actually Subtle Bodies still ‘alive’, or something else?
Agarthian: They are Psychic Bodies of deceased people.
L.P. – And Subtle Bodies are not contacted?
Agarthian: At a certain point after the Physical Body has died, Subtle Bodies virtually disappear.
L.P. – It seems to me that some last a long time… or am I wrong?
Agarthian: In reality some entities remain for a long time.
L.P. – Because they are very attached to Earth…
Agarthian: He didn’t want to address this issue, but if someone is effectively unable to detach from a recent
life, the Subtle Body takes a long time to dissolve. Some examples are certain famous people – in both
art and politics – who were very successful and are unable to separate even though they were sent to
lower worlds – as was mentioned previously – because what happened on Earth was unforgettable.
L.P. – In that case, do they leave that Subtle Body here and acquire a new one in the lower world to which
they were sent?
Agarthian: Yes, correct.
L.P. – Therefore those Subtle Bodies should be contactable: for example, Hitler’s Subtle Body should be
contactable by mediums.
Agarthian: If it were allowed, yes.
L.P. – Can it be forbidden?
Agarthian: He says yes.
L.P. – Good. How can outer entities be contacted without going into an altered state of consciousness? Is
there a right way?
Agarthian: Yes there is: remain alert and learn how to use telepathy very well, with its associated senses, the
sixth sense I mentioned earlier, and the mind’s ability to always better reproduce information to be
L.P. – I will repeat another question which was not answered previously due to lack of time: are there
definite physical signs to prove that contact has been made with a non-physical entity?
Agarthian: A definite sign is when, having known that person in physical life, he/she is recognized
physically either by smell or from one or more scenes, or by outer appearance (a true apparition).
L.P. – Another question: who approves or prohibits contact with Subtle or Psychic Bodies of very negative
deceased people (eg Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc)?
Agarthian: There is something like a rule that establishes what can and cannot be known. He also says it’s
best not to contact these entities.
L.P. – I agree: I just wanted to know if it was prohibited by an entity or a law. Now I’ll repeat another
question from earlier because I haven’t yet assimilated the answer: how do we know if we are dealing
with a Subtle or Psychic Body? Since the Subtle Body has only one identity and the Psychic Body has
several, I would expect them to differ.
Agarthian: From our point of view it’s not important because when these communications are allowed, the
main thing is the information that comes through; however if an entity presents itself with the traits
similar to that of a known Physical Body, it is obviously a Subtle Body. An entity may also appear as
it looked in an even earlier physical life. The important thing anyway is the information it provides.
L.P. – As I understand it, especially with a medium involved, these entities don’t always tell the truth:
sometimes it’s far from it, am I right?
Agarthian: Indeed, this is why psychic sittings should be avoided unless there is a truly important message to
pass on, because sittings with negative entities are destabilizing for the medium. Some people are
susceptible to experiences of ‘dissociation’ typical of mediums, while most – and EP is amongst the
exceptions – are unable to tolerate this ‘integration/separation’ from another entity. This also applies to
LP. Most contacts with deceased people occur by means of telepathic messages, irrespective of
whether the receiver is awake, asleep, or in a trance.
L.P. – So the outer appearance of these entities can be deceptive… Is that right?
Agarthian: He says yes. In these worlds all too often spirits which humans call ‘evil’ or ‘negative’ can
intrude, looking like someone familiar in order to give out misleading messages.
L.P. – Are these entities the Subtle Bodies of previous physical beings, or stand-alone entities who exist on
Agarthian: A bit of both.
Regarding mediums, ‘He’ explains that a proper medium uses what for his is the most natural ‘channel’ to
contact other dimensions. We could say the medium spontaneously reaches a state that is similar to the OBE
in which NR is now. In reality there isn’t contact with a particular deceased person: it’s true that realities are
infinite and all present simultaneously, but the deceased is no longer in that specific reality. If the death was
recent, or if the deceased was extremely attached to his/her most recent life, the medium can contact the
deceased’s Subtle Body and ‘touch’ it. However contacting Subtle Bodies is not advised. Other contactable
beings in that state may be positive, but also very negative. A medium may contact a deceased entity and
this contact may be positive in as much as that type of vibration may help the client, but that level of reality
is virtually non-existent. Some want to contact the Subtle Body of a deceased person, but the deceased may
have significant baggage, and so contact is not helpful.
LP asks if a medium who claims to be in contact with a deceased person really is, or if it is a Subtle Body
interaction, or just telepathically reads the client’s mind and says what the client wants to hear. ‘He’ replies
that if the medium is truly gifted and honest he/she can indeed contact the deceased not as a living person
but actually outside of time. If the deceased has already shed the Subtle Body, he/she has ‘passed over’
correctly and can access surprising information: the summary has occurred following the most recent life,
ended with a higher level of awareness. When contacting a deceased one who has travelled correctly, and
the client’s need for contact is not extreme, a medium may work without a problem and obtain answers from
an ‘area of awareness’ in which the deceased knows to be and has used the acquired experience.
L.P. – After our Physical and Subtle Bodies are eliminated, how long does our identity that is contactable by
mediums persist? You said that it is still contactable while it is planning the next physical life, but for
“He” – They are two different situations. In the first case sometimes the Subtle Body is not quite ‘in sync’,
especially after passing over in death, and it would be beneficial to have both a better synchrony and a
period of time to process the recent life experience before the next physical life. However, often the
Subtle Body remains after physical death. I think it’s an anomaly, and shouldn’t happen, but it’s a
temporary phase and easily contactable: it is in fact contact with the Subtle Body. When remaining
loved ones have a strong emotion, the Subtle Body is influenced by it and has difficulty disappearing.
In the second case a medium has the opportunity to contact – in a sort of timeless neutral field –
‘people’ whose Physical and Subtle Bodies have already long disappeared, but who want to establish
contact with this medium, as the medium does with them.
L.P. – Is the identity contacted by the medium in that case part of the deceased’s Psychic Body, or is it
“He” – Yes certainly, it’s part of the Psychic Body, and usually it’s that very identity that wants contact with
mediums, rather than the other way. It happens when something important needs to be said. However
it is easier for mediums to contact Subtle Bodies.
L.P. – It seems like the Subtle Body is in some way detectable instrumentally, but is it also possible to
somehow detect the Psychic Body?
“He” – The Psychic Body cannot be detected instrumentally: its component is too different to be detected
with technology. However, the fact that different people simultaneously have the same mental
perceptions (such as images or sensations) when connected to each other, such as in an OBE, can be
L.P. – With respect to communication with the deceased, it is possible to use technological means, or are
“He” – At this time mediums are better than technological devices, as long as the medium is reliable.
L.P. – What is the best technique for contacting another person’s Subtle Body?
“He” – For now anything technological can be ruled out: there’s nothing suitable. An OBE, for example, is
better, even though some have the ability without the need for an actual OBE and some mediums can
do it. These abilities are for contacting living people rather than the deceased.
L.P. – I don’t share the widespread interest people have in the deceased, but it’s always necessary for us to
provide scientific evidence that in man something exists that is not just flesh; prevailing science
reduces everything alive to simply structure and chemical reactions, and proof that something non-
material exists would be a fundamental contribution. Technological proof is however more credible
than the opposite, but even non-technological proof is acceptable if it can be reproduced and has
adequate statistical support.
“He” – The consistent channelling of the same reality by different people has not yet been achieved. It won’t
be easy, but you have the ability to do it.
L.P. – We would also need different ‘guides’, not just the ‘travellers’.
“He” – It remains to be seen whether or not the latter theory is practical, but in every case a multiple
approach would carry more weight and produce different accounts of the same reality. Regarding
contact with Subtle Bodies of the recently deceased, which are still very attached to the most recent
life, usually living people wanting contact carry a lot of emotion. This is a type of energy and it’s
important to know that energy must be directed at something so it can be used by the medium for
contact, but that energy can also be obtained by a group of people emitting a strong intention, rather
than a single loved one who feels much affection only towards the deceased. Using a group it’s
possible to contact the Subtle Bodies of the deceased as well as the living, and thereby access their
Psychic Body. Usually, for emotional reasons, we limit ourselves to the dead, but contact with living
people opens a very rich research field yet to be explored.
L.P. – I came to the conclusion that some contacts with the dead are products of telepathy by the medium
picking up on the needs and knowledge of the client, with the resulting answers consistent with the
client’s expectations and told in a voice similar to the deceased’s. Is this correct?
“He” – No, that is reductive: this may happen on occasion, but often they are situations of which I spoke
earlier, real communication.
L.P. – But in order for the replies to be credible, the client must not know beforehand the message that
comes through, otherwise how can we distinguish the difference between fake and real
“He” – Sometimes the information is something unexpected.
L.P. – What is the approximate percentage of ‘genuine’ communication?
“He” – It very much depends on the quality of the medium: the channeller is very important – in this case
it’s the only possibility.
L.P. – Is it really impossible to detect the Subtle Body’s aura, or does some technique exist?
“He” – At the moment it’s too difficult for you: just developing a technique to detect the Physical Body’s
aura is a big thing. You need to progress in steps: credibility is important to you and, even if you could
see it, it’s wouldn’t have much impact if you were to present the Subtle Body’s aura before
definitively presenting the Physical Body’s aura.
L.P. – When talented mediums materialize an object, what actually happens: do they relocate it, or create
it… and why is the object often hot?
“He” – We’ve spoken about this, but it’s best to explain what you all don’t get about what holds matter
together – you can sense that there’s something that makes a body become a body, a heart become a
heart, a stone become a stone, but you don’t know how. The medium doesn’t know it, but uses that
mechanism: he/she knows he/she’s able to do it and focuses all his/her attention, putting in motion a
force that others lack, to ‘coagulate’ matter into the desired shape. In that moment the medium is
conscious, but unaware.
L.P. – So a medium thinks about a jug and a jug is formed, but if he/she had thought about a jug with a
structural defect, and it appears in its defective form, it could break, let’s say, because it’s too thin.
Here’s another example: I have worked on so-called ‘ghosts’ and I noticed that they sometimes
appear with anatomical defects. I think the defects are because whoever produces the ‘ghost’ is
unfamiliar with anatomy and ‘designs’ it poorly: perhaps someone as talented as Da Vinci would
make them appear anatomically perfect. Does this also happen when a medium ‘materializes’
“He” – This is only partially true: it’s not an ability which is better used if a medium knows the structural
details of the object to be formed. While it’s true that the materialized object may have a defect, this
happens if the medium hasn’t fully mastered the ability to assemble matter. It may be difficult to enter
into the appropriate ‘state’, but if properly immersed in it, the materialization is successful.
L.P. – There’s a difference between visualizing the appearance and the structure: the latter allows a deep
understanding of an object’s structure and function so that the most appropriate shape for its use can
be chosen. Can this be a good metaphor to understand the ‘state’ you mentioned?
“He” – Yes.
L.P. – Why is the materialized object sometimes very hot?
“He” – Indeed, it’s not always hot. Sometimes the Subtle Body’s energy is involved, the properties of which
are very close to those of the Physical Body and can produce heat. The medium also works to ‘wrap’
the materializing object with his/her Subtle Body, which transfers some of its energy in the form of
L.P. – You spoke about something which calls to mind Rupert Sheldrake’s Morphogenetic Field: is this
involved when a medium materializes something? Is it able to correct potential aforementioned
planning errors using a pre-existing correct model?
“He” – When materializing something, mediums use the Morphogenetic Field, which is used for protection
and to activate their abilities and, for that type of experience, also to tap into unknown information.
This is exactly to avoid planning errors mentioned previously.
L.P. – In that case are some defective images of ‘ghosts’ real, or are they defective because images are not
as important as tangible things?
“He” – Images have a purpose and the defect is always a comparison with what is in your mind: if you see
an image of a person moving but not walking, it could have been thought of this way, as if it were a
photo. Only a physical body has to move in an anatomically correct way. A moving image may
correctly communicate information even if it’s not anatomically perfect: it’s not a materialization and
there is much freedom of expression.
L.P. – Indeed, a sequence of photo images of a female moving in front of a wall of hanging pictures in an
imposing residence, even if the figure is imperfect, will still convey the idea of the presence of a lady in
a past time, for example, if she is wearing seventeenth-century clothes.
“He” – In materialization the laws governing aggregation of matter and the functionality of the produced
object require the use of more precise and detailed information, and the Morphogenetic Field helps in
tapping into that information.
L.P. – Let’s turn to channelling: recently Helané Wahbeh, who collaborates with Dean Radin, wrote an
article describing the channellings of 5 people who channelled beings who – at least to me, as a
layperson – seem rather odd, like angels, archangels, the Madonna, Christ, and even God. Is all of
“He” – We’ve already mentioned the fact that some people are in contact with well-known individuals, often
from the past. Channelling is real, but they are not channelling God. As an example, I am an entity
with the advantage of linking to both of you, however when I have to translate my thoughts into
concepts you can understand, I have to take into account how you think. As such, these channellers
channel a type of energy which, at a more subtle level but still attached to their personalities, they
identify as those symbolic individuals: it is indeed difficult to completely depersonify the channelled
L.P. – To what extent are you independent of my and NR’s culture and beliefs?
“He” – I was hoping you would ask me that. I can’t say I’m totally independent, because if I were, I couldn’t
make contact. To do so, I have to connect to your sense of intuition. Intuition is the most accurate
concept and there is no contact without it. Obviously, as you’ve noticed, our interaction gradually
changes but this must happen gradually and it has to do with you. What I say does not depend on
either of you; how I express it depends on your beliefs, culture, and abilities.
L.P. – Indeed, your statements sometimes concur with what I think and other times don’t, and to me those
that don’t concur with either my or NR’s beliefs are the most credible because when one of your
statements agrees with my point of view, I wonder if it’s because I somehow transmitted that concept.
“He” – I know very well that I have not always convinced you of some things.
L.P. – How does channelling work? Why is it that some channel and others don’t?
“He” – Channelling is connected to the Subtle Body, as I said and, to do it, its traits (and the traits of other
things) are used. It doesn’t work the same way for everyone and depends not only on the channelled
entity, but also the channeller, to whom the Subtle Body in use is connected. If the channelling occurs
during an hypnotically controlled OBE, it also depends on the guide; not all channellings are the same.
L.P. – Not everyone can do the same things with the Physical Body either…
“He” – The depth of the channelling also varies, and this also affects physical parameters. I had suggested
you also analyse those during channelling because they vary too.
L.P. – During an OBE is it possible, for example, to converse with the deceased or to channel specific
“He” – The same way as a medium?
L.P. – Something similar, but more reliably.
“He” – As I said, it’s not really a matter of quality as much as the ‘emotional field’ around a deceased
person if the death was recent, and which a medium senses, therefore reliability is not necessarily
greater in an OBE. These two situations have very different goals. It’s much to do with motivation of
both the channelled entity and the client; channelling doesn’t happen by chance, and motivation is a
fundamental factor in the quality of the channelling itself and its outcome.
L.P. – I meant that in a channelling such as this one now we are able to converse and discuss things for
many hours, and so do a more methodical work which can rarely be done through mediums because
they don’t guarantee contact and time is limited. I was curious about whether or not deceased people
can be accessed. For example, I would like to know the thoughts of my best friend – FF – who passed
away over 12 years ago. It’s pure curiosity, since any potential contact would not substantially change
“He” – I still sense doubts in you: this is why you’re thinking of someone whom you know.
L.P. – This is how I am…
“He” – Indeed. You believe that it’s easier to trust someone you know. I’m telling you that this would
misdirect you from your objective.
L.P. – I understand; I’d get the urge to talk to many deceased people and lose time…
“He” – You already have the requisites to move in a particular direction and obtain data, and they are readily
available. I clearly sense that your obstacle is fear of failure in that direction and the resultant
embarrassment. You think that contacting someone you know will provide certainty, but don’t worry
and don’t be fearful: contact will divert you.
L.P. – What is channelling based on? Why doesn’t everyone do it? Why do some channel ‘advanced’ entities
and some very ‘low’ entities?
“He” – Basically it’s the individual’s ‘abilities’, connected to the Subtle Body, on which channelling
depends, but the physical aspects and personality are also very important and influence the
‘translation’ of entities present. It varies greatly from person to person.
L.P. – Is it a cultural or physical predisposition?
“He” – It’s not a cultural predisposition, which is something that can influence the Entity’s information;
rather, it is the quality of what the channeller perceives and reports, which is highly influenced by
personality, in the sense of evolutionary level.
L.P. – Does a higher evolutionary level mean a better ability to detach from one’s Ego?
“He” – No, the ability to leave the Ego behind has to do with the quality of transmission – the reporting – of
the data. It’s obvious however that those who can put aside part of the Ego also have a higher
evolutionary level that enables them to give a more objective description of facts.
L.P. – But if too much of one’s Ego is put aside there is the risk of becoming embroiled in ‘nonsense’…
“He” – In a sense that’s true, but speaking of personality I meant what you all consider to be the deep inner
part of an individual – one’s awareness: it’s that which makes the difference in channelling.
L.P. – It seems to me that a person should be culturally ready (secular) – as in free from the influence of
religion, politics or philosophy, to maintain non-prejudiced judgement – and discard the portion of
Ego needed to evaluate outside information without feeling that one’s dignity has been limited. Is this
“He” – This is true especially regarding your intention, and these traits are important when compared with
this. I know your intention, which, in some way, is also mine, and it is also based on a strong sense of
helping others. These characteristics are not always necessary for contact because there are also
genuine contacts but with other goals that are not necessarily ‘negative’ (by your parameters): for
example the channelling of dead people through mediums.
L.P. – Are there other characteristics needed for efficient channelling?
“He” – The physical part is also not indifferent, so much so that, as you know, even NR has had moments of
physical difficulty because channelling has an effect on crude matter, which has to be sufficiently
healthy and unimpaired because it reflects on the Subtle Body. It’s necessary to be physically and
mentally healthy and robust.
L.P. – In California, Helané Wahbeh has a certain number of spontaneous channellers and has become
interested in our work with guided channellings: is there a way to easily change spontaneous
channelling into guided channelling, or are they two separate activities?
“He” – What do you mean by ‘spontaneous’?
L.P. – It’s when certain people concentrate – go into a trance – and channel in one direction, as I
understand it. The group is analysing the contents of these channellings and noticed many things in
common with what emerged from the multiple channelling done in Avenza (Italy), but they still don’t
know what we did with individual channelling. Would it be possible for them to make their
spontaneous channellers easily change to guided channellers, or is it very difficult?
“He” – It’s possible to change spontaneous channellings to guided channellings: those with which Wahbeh
is involved arose that way because they were more functional in that reality. However, essentially it
could be very interesting to go from spontaneous to guided channelling, but also vice versa from
guided to spontaneous (ie, someone well experienced in guided channelling, such as NR, could try to
channel spontaneously. [author’s note] ) because it could open up a bigger range of opportunities.
L.P. – Speaking of contact with the dead, Gary Schwartz talks about a device called ‘SoulPhone’: how
reliable and efficient do you think this is? Or is it just a money-making scheme?
“He” – From my point of view it makes no sense.
L.P. – But is it a good technical way of contacting the other side?
“He” – It involves that part of the Subtle Body that is still – after death – closely connected to the Physical
L.P. – You said something I suspected: that part lingers longer because it was more ‘emotionally attached’
to aspects of the latest physical life.
“He” – Yes, the Subtle Body is something that needs to gradually be ‘set down’, like the dregs that form at
the bottom inside wine bottles as they age. If the bottle is regularly shaken, the wine is not cleaned.
L.P. – It seems to me the problem is that the Subtle Bodies of people lacking morals and integrity tend to
‘hang around’ more easily. These Subtle Bodies continue to act in reprehensible ways: they cause
mischief, fear, and delight in making fun of people. I suspect that a device like the ‘SoulPhone’ has the
same flaws as mediums.
“He” – Certainly mediums can be very capable people, but it’s the deeper motivation – the ‘unconscious’
one – of which they are unaware that makes the difference. No doubt Schwartz is going in a different
direction than you. I ‘am you’ and you both ‘are me’, as I’ve said many times, and I can assure you we
are going in a totally different direction.
L.P. – Why is it that channelled entities, like you, reply to questions – when they feel like it – but almost
never make autonomous statements?
“Light” – Because it’s important to respond relative to the questioner’s level of need: what I know isn’t
important, it’s my answers to your questions representing your need to know. It’s a didactic method.
L.P. – From a theoretical point of view – that is, from the perspective of a non-physical being – what is the
difference between ‘teleportation’ (an object, such as a vase, is taken from one place and
‘transported’ to another, where it is made to appear in front of onlookers) and ‘materialization’ (the
object is ‘created out of thin air’ in the presence of onlookers)? What is the difference between these
“Light” – Nothing, psychic energy is used in both.
L.P. – Teleportation seems to comprise of a dematerialization followed by re-materialization…
“Light” – It still involves movement: even when an object is created ‘out of thin air’, as it were, it really
comes from another place, even from another dimension, but the mind simply can’t locate the origin.
L.P. – So it’s still a teleportation, albeit from another dimension, from a different level of reality?
“Light” – Yes.
L.P. – There are techniques for contacting deceased people, such as those that use metaphony, but do you
think these conversational techniques with the dead are worth the effort or is it best not to?
“Light” – No.
L.P. – Why not?
“Light” – Because, as I’ve said, time doesn’t exist and people who have passed over are still present, given
that we are all on the same ‘level’, however, because they are dead they should no longer have contact
with us, or rather, with the person seeking contact – they should be left alone. They actually still exist,
because there is no time, but there must be separation and, if a living person continues to seek those
considered deceased, the link is maintained and so is contact, and often the ‘deceased’ responds to that
contact, which however must be interrupted because of an ‘evolutionary’ necessity involving both the
living and the deceased. It’s not good to maintain that type of contact. Sometimes it’s fine for brief
moments, such as when deceased people appear in the dreams of living people: they are minor things,
but separation is needed without any contact.
L.P. – We are currently doing a high level channelling: can you tell me how channelling ‘works’ and why
only few people can do it?
“Light” – During channelling the Psychic Body has to separate from the Physical Body, but in humans it has
to remain connected to it at the same time: this is why it’s a channelling. Only those who are
somewhat close to completely separating from the Physical Body can channel, because they are close
to the end of their cycle of lives on Earth. Other people are virtually totally unaware of the Psychic
Body: it permeates the Physical Body and does not allow channelling.
L.P. – What is the role of the guide – in this case me – in channelling?
“Light” – The guide is an anchor for the channel, otherwise it would be difficult to ask questions and
translate answers simultaneously without help, because at that moment the Psychic Body is detached
and far from the Physical Body. You are the anchor, the translator.
L.P. – I believe I know why, but I’d like you to tell me why some people channel high-level Beings while
others channel low-level ones.
“Light” – The Psychic Body’s separation from the Physical is gradual. The first few times it either doesn’t
separate, or does only a little: there still isn’t awareness of this separation and then it’s easy for low-
level Entities to enter. The greater the awareness of separation, the easier to contact Beings who are
close to the Original Source, the Supreme Being.
L.P. – Deceased people are typical non-physical beings and mediums claim to be able to talk with them. Is
this essentially correct?
“Light” – Sometimes it’s true because a dead person’s ‘psychic’ part may remain close to that level of
L.P. – Is this the part we call Subtle Body?
“Light” – Yes. It has to stay there due to unfinished business, because it is unable to separate.
L.P. – Can that Subtle Body be questioned?
“Light” – Yes, it can be reached by mediums.
L.P. – Do you think that NR can act as a medium during her OBE (her current state)?
“Light” – Yes she can, but for humans it’s difficult to distinguish a dead person’s Subtle Body from a
‘pirate’ entity, because in many cases it’s not the deceased’s Subtle Body that’s replying but other
Beings who use the energy of humans and are simply in proximity to them; therefore the medium,
together with the client, must know exactly with whom they are speaking, even if it’s difficult.
L.P. – If we are speaking with their Subtle Bodies, does this mean that their Psychic Bodies have already
moved on to other experiences?
“Light” – Yes, that’s usually the case.
L.P. – So these Subtle Bodies we speak with should gradually lose their efficiency and eventually disappear.
Is this correct?
“Light” – Yes, but time doesn’t exist so it depends on that Body’s bond with earth’s reality. You need to
determine whether or not those you contact are still attached to your reality. I think VR also needs
another ‘point of contact’, in order to connect to the right Subtle Bodies. I think it would be too hard to
connect using only a name.
L.P. –You’ve already told me something important: we are dealing with Subtle Bodies. Therefore on the one
hand we have Subtle Bodies still holding beliefs from when they were physical, and on the other hand
we have Psychic Bodies at that point having different experiences and, consequently, may have altered
their way of thinking.
“Light” – Yes. Here on Earth the Psychic and Subtle Bodies are not necessarily still close to each other, let
alone with you all: this presents a serious difficulty. It’s much easier to look at what happened to
people who have undergone trauma because a ‘mark’ is left behind which must be recognized even in
L.P. – Let’s return to talking about mediumship: there is a ‘world’ comprised of Subtle Bodies which have
detached from their dead Physical Bodies but have not yet embarked on the path that would lead to
their disappearance through re-entry into the Psychic Body, Is this correct?
“Light” – Yes, it is.
L.P. – So they can be reached and questioned by mediums.
“Light” – Yes.
L.P. – Their timespan has therefore a meaning in our physical time, but in reality they always exist, in that
they represent a permanent experience. Am I right?
“Light” – Yes you are right.
L.P. – Speaking of channels of communication, can you please give us some useful technical advice on ways
to use technology to contact non-physical entities, so that even those without particular abilities can
ASTOR – On Earth at present it is a time of great transformation and these contacts are, from our side, much
more difficult. Channellers have lost the ability, which was present in previous times, to keep
themselves pure and this is unfortunately also due to their sustenance and way of life. The more
prepared a channeller is, the easier the contact, because it must be said – and important to remember –
that not all contacts made by channellers produce the same effects and results. In the subtle world
there are many interferences: there are always battles over energy superiority.
L.P. – According to what you say, there’s little difference between our world and your ‘subtle’ one…
ASTOR – Not ours, but that which is closer to yours: there are many dimensional planes, as you know. The
purer the energy, coming down from higher dimensions, the more difficult it is to reach the lower
planes because of these constant interferences. We also need dimensional paths to be as clean and pure
as possible. Furthermore your channellers are not all suitable: it depends on how well they can tolerate
different vibrations (from their own), because there must be a levelling, an adjustment of vibrations,
which is very sensitive and difficult.
L.P. – Can these adjustments be facilitated technologically, or are they exclusively the purview of the mind?
ASTOR – Your technology is not yet able to do it: for the time being it is limited to only recording those
L.P. – Sometimes I got the impression that you (in the plural) find it hard to obtain information which we
can find with relative ease, but on the other hand you can get information which is unavailable to us.
ASTOR – This depends on the ability of the person through whom we speak to find the proper terminology
or, sometimes, on the difficulty we have – since we don’t use words – to explain a concept that is
obvious to us.
L.P. – We also have the problem of finding the right words and concepts for the audience so that they can
understand new things. I would think it’s even harder for you because the channeller’s vocabulary
must include words and concepts to clearly express ideas which are so foreign to the audience’s
reality, otherwise an idea cannot be expressed. Is this correct?
ASTOR – It’s partially that. Sometimes the difficulty arises with the Energy (Entity) itself, which is unable
to translate its own concepts into words.
Topic: Who are we really?
L.P. – Are we spiritual beings having a human experience?
Agarthian: Yes and no, because he says the subject is too complicated for our minds in that it’s possible for
us to NOT be humans NOR spiritual beings: it’s how the human mind makes sense of the common
experience he calls ‘life’. You are not necessarily a human soul, but it’s very complicated because it
involves entities not always from this plane of reality coming into human bodies.
L.P. – These entities which are not necessarily human have their own physical reality, not just a spiritual
one, is that correct?
L.P. – Thank you. Do physical laws apply everywhere, or do they vary from one universe to another?
Agarthian: They vary from universe to universe.
L.P. – What is consciousness? How do you define it?
Agarthian: A single and indisputable definition on the human level is not possible because they are still in
the process of putting one together and everyone has an opinion. As far as he is concerned,
consciousness is the ‘string’ around which the necklace (or bracelet) of lives (mentioned previously) is
arranged, and it ‘runs’ both the ‘chain’ with all its lives and the individual ‘pendants’ (individual
lives). It’s a divine component that permeates all living beings and humans have the task of
L.P. – So is the ‘necklace’ (or bracelet) of lives cognizant or does it represent equipment used by the
Agarthian: As far as he knows consciousness informs the Psychic Body, not vice versa.
L.P. – What is the link between consciousness and information?
Agarthian: Consciousness produces information which makes it possible for the Psychic Body to exist as
well as all lives in succession, which are needed for learning.
L.P. – Can our essence – our Psychic Body – be schematized as light? If this makes sense, thinking and
being light, it could plausibly produce light. Is this correct?
“He” – The mind is more than light…
L.P. – Do emotional reactions only exist at the physical level or also at higher levels?
“He” – Emotions also exist in other non-physical dimensions, such as, for example, the one in which NR
was during your life in the Nuragic era 3500 years ago. At that level there is something similar to
emotions, but it is at its greatest in physical beings.
Which parts of these dialogues support the theory that the given information originates from the entities
and not by the channellers in a non-pathological dissociative identity state? We believe the main points to be
- The channellers did not know each other and transcriptions of the channellings were not divulged
- The contents obtained by the presumed channelled personalities, despite some differences, were on the
whole concurring and did not seem contradictory.
The interviews offer a rich bulk of information that seems to converge about a shared vision of who we
are and what we will experience after the physical death.
Even though this study still leaves plenty of room for doubt regarding the information’s source, we
believe that our procedure is relatively easy and flexible to be used with experienced hypnotists and
channellers, and can be replicated also by sceptics, to compare information obtained in this study applying
different procedures. For example, different channellers could be induced to channel the same entity and
they answers to the same questions could be compared to check similarities and differences. If they turned
out to be much the same, it would be far less likely that the answers originated from the channellers in a
special non pathological dissociative identity state.
Independent replications would constitute further proofs to the fact that the information does not
come from the channellers, but rather from entities in the afterlife.
Luhrmann, T. M., Weisman, K., Aulino, F., Brahinsky, J. D., Dulin, J. C., Dzokoto, V. A., ... & Smith, R. E.
(2021). Sensing the presence of gods and spirits across cultures and faiths. Proceedings of the National
Academy of Sciences, 118(5). e2016649118; https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2016649118
Pederzoli, L. & Tressoldi, P. E. (2018). A Guide for OBE Induction. Available at SSRN:
https://ssrn.com/abstract=3148432 or http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3148432
Pederzoli, L., Prati, E., Resti, N., Del Carlo, D., & Tressoldi, P. (2020). Hypno-Channelings: A new tool for
the investigation of Channeling Experiences. Journal of Consciousness Exploration & Research, 11(5),
Pederzoli, L., Tressoldi, P. & Wahbeh, H. (2021). Channeling: A Non-pathological Possession and
Dissociative Identity Experience or Something Else? Culture, Medicine and Psychiatry, DOI:
Wahbeh, H., Carpenter, L., & Radin, D. (2018). A mixed methods phenomenological and exploratory study
of channeling. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 82(3), 129–148.
Wahbeh, H., & Butzer, B. (2020). Characteristics of English-speaking trance channelers. EXPLORE, 16(5),