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Culture,
Community
& Climate:
conversations about
emergent praxis
5
First published 2020
art.earth, Kingsbridge, Devon, England
www.artdotearth.org
Text and illustrations are © the original authors
Whole publication and design concept © Richard Povall
The right of art.earth and the individual authors to be identified as the authors of this work has
been asserted by them in accordance with the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, 1988.
All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reprinted or reproduced in any form or by
any electronic, mechanical or other means, now known or hereafter invented, including
photocopying or recording, or in any information storage or retrieval system, without
permission in writing from the publisher.
Design: art.earth; set in Myriad Pro Light
cover image: Markus Wernli Anthroponix (photo: Sarah Daher)
A catalogue record is available from the British Library.
ISBN: 978-0-9957196-4-4
Published by artdotearth CIC, Kingsbridge, Devon, England www.artdotearth.org | publications@artdotearth.org
5
First published 2020
art.earth, Kingsbridge, Devon, England
www.artdotearth.org
Text and illustrations are © the original authors
Whole publication and design concept © Richard Povall
The right of art.earth and the individual authors to be identified as the authors of this work has
been asserted by them in accordance with the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, 1988.
All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reprinted or reproduced in any form or by
any electronic, mechanical or other means, now known or hereafter invented, including
photocopying or recording, or in any information storage or retrieval system, without
permission in writing from the publisher.
Design: art.earth; set in Myriad Pro Light
cover image: Markus Wernli Anthroponix (photo: Sarah Daher)
A catalogue record is available from the British Library.
ISBN: 978-0-9957196-4-4
Published by artdotearth CIC, Kingsbridge, Devon, England www.artdotearth.org | publications@artdotearth.org
Contents
Markus Wernli Anthroponix (photo: Sarah Dehler)
Contents
Markus Wernli Anthroponix (photo: Sarah Dehler)
Anthroponix: Collective urine
upcycling to grow plants and
material responsibility
Markus Wernli
photo: Sarah Daher
Anthroponix: Collective urine
upcycling to grow plants and
material responsibility
Markus Wernli
photo: Sarah Daher
68
69
Collective urine upcycling to grow plants
and material responsibility
Markus Wernli
To move people towards patterns of eating, living, and en-
gaging with the world that promote wellbeing and a healthy
environment, we need to explore novel collaborations for
remaking human organization. In this art-led, two-month
long work alliance, participants-cum-experimenters ferment-
ed their own urine for a substrate in which to grow an edible
plant (Lactuca sativa), thereby creating a simple material
relationship between their bodies and the environment. The
outcome of this social experimentation with 22 participants
revealed how the jointly encountered technical ambiguity
stimulated curiosity and a unifying purpose which promoted
social engagement and positively aected environmental
relationships.
Human biology formulized into actionable concern
Titled as Anthroponix, this study brought 22 households
in Hong Kong into a coordinated effort to repurpose
urine into something desirable for reconnecting with
our biological foundation, and a gateway for harm-aware
action. Reconceiving our basic, bodily functions, like
eating and excreting, so that they are feeding back to the
environment, requires to change our (food) culture from
inside out. The study therefore explored constructive
ways of interacting with human waste, and reframe it
into a responsibility-triggering agent. Such participative,
ecological sanitation is not just about closing broken
nutrients cycles. It involved co-regulating entanglements
with digestion and fermentation that can be guidance for
human organization.
Fermentation as collective enablement
Often the long-term consequences are ignored when
the focus is on speed, control, and efficiency. In response,
Anthroponix pursued developmental pedagogies that
bring the hidden context in direct relation with the
apparent phenomenon for engaging in complexity in
actionable ways. Adaptation here originates in a creative
dynamic where the reorientation inside individuals and
organizations opens unknowable possibilities, particularly
in situations when we don’t know what to do.
Anthroponix employed fermentation as technique to re-
cover excess (waste-prone) energy with readily available,
local inputs, rather than relying on external resources (like
chemicals, electricity, logistics) for generating new circula-
tions of life, enablement and meaning. Our organism can
absorb food only, because gut bacteria deep inside of us
are breaking it down—fermenting it. All life depends on
this eating through-each-other. Hence, staying close with
untrustworthy partners, paying attention to the processes
involved, and living with the consequences, will make us
safer in the long run. Fermentation also entails a healthy
dose of messiness which requires to let go of external
impositions and trust in emergence.
Exploring consequential body-environment
interactions
This project experimented with applying urine as fertilizer
in water-based horticulture that is ‘freed’ from soil. To this
end, fermentation stabilizes the urine biochemically to
avert smell and retain nutrients. At such miniaturized scale
this has never been done before, therefore Anthroponix
was a risky and emergent undertaking. Yet being
persuasive, the consequential foodloop enrolled in spring 2017 for
almost two months, 22 participants who wanted to improve their
eating and urine output for growing healthier plants. Participants
collected/tested/fermented a small urine sample in their homes,
every day in the first three weeks, for growing lettuce thereof in the
second half of the project. The necessary materials, knowledge and
support was provided in five, biweekly afternoon workshops.
The quality of each urine sample was carefully interrelated with the
prospering of the lettuce plant. Participants received testing strips to
check on health-related indicators in their urine, and monitored the
fertilizer solution as well as plant growth with reference guides. An
elaborate journal assisted in recording bidirectionally the flourishing
in humans (eating, bodycare, urination), and nonhuman players
(ferment, fertilizer, plant). This plant/human co-evolution was also
carried into the workshops through presentations that emphasized
the similarities in anatomy and functioning across life forms.
Balancing joint task with gratifying involvement
Because the procedures had been downscaled in the last minute
and thereby were untested, the technical setup of Anthroponix was
flawed. Already on day one, the urine containers leaked, since the
bacteria were stronger than the centrifugal tubes. And most lettuc-
es remained stunted since the planters were too small for properly
mineralizing the urine’s nutrients. Confronted with these limitations,
facilitators had to quickly surrender their pride and admit shortcom-
ings, while participants had to relinquish expectations and pitch
in with own expertise. Despite the trouble, nobody quit, and most
participants evidently enjoyed the process. The question was, why
participants stayed on, and what motivated them to act in the com-
mon interest for advancing the project rather than giving up.
The evaluation showed that participants with stronger involvement
in the group, stayed more engaged in their daily duties. Crucial was
photo: Sarah Daher
68
69
Collective urine upcycling to grow plants
and material responsibility
Markus Wernli
To move people towards patterns of eating, living, and en-
gaging with the world that promote wellbeing and a healthy
environment, we need to explore novel collaborations for
remaking human organization. In this art-led, two-month
long work alliance, participants-cum-experimenters ferment-
ed their own urine for a substrate in which to grow an edible
plant (Lactuca sativa), thereby creating a simple material
relationship between their bodies and the environment. The
outcome of this social experimentation with 22 participants
revealed how the jointly encountered technical ambiguity
stimulated curiosity and a unifying purpose which promoted
social engagement and positively aected environmental
relationships.
Human biology formulized into actionable concern
Titled as Anthroponix, this study brought 22 households
in Hong Kong into a coordinated effort to repurpose
urine into something desirable for reconnecting with
our biological foundation, and a gateway for harm-aware
action. Reconceiving our basic, bodily functions, like
eating and excreting, so that they are feeding back to the
environment, requires to change our (food) culture from
inside out. The study therefore explored constructive
ways of interacting with human waste, and reframe it
into a responsibility-triggering agent. Such participative,
ecological sanitation is not just about closing broken
nutrients cycles. It involved co-regulating entanglements
with digestion and fermentation that can be guidance for
human organization.
Fermentation as collective enablement
Often the long-term consequences are ignored when
the focus is on speed, control, and efficiency. In response,
Anthroponix pursued developmental pedagogies that
bring the hidden context in direct relation with the
apparent phenomenon for engaging in complexity in
actionable ways. Adaptation here originates in a creative
dynamic where the reorientation inside individuals and
organizations opens unknowable possibilities, particularly
in situations when we don’t know what to do.
Anthroponix employed fermentation as technique to re-
cover excess (waste-prone) energy with readily available,
local inputs, rather than relying on external resources (like
chemicals, electricity, logistics) for generating new circula-
tions of life, enablement and meaning. Our organism can
absorb food only, because gut bacteria deep inside of us
are breaking it down—fermenting it. All life depends on
this eating through-each-other. Hence, staying close with
untrustworthy partners, paying attention to the processes
involved, and living with the consequences, will make us
safer in the long run. Fermentation also entails a healthy
dose of messiness which requires to let go of external
impositions and trust in emergence.
Exploring consequential body-environment
interactions
This project experimented with applying urine as fertilizer
in water-based horticulture that is ‘freed’ from soil. To this
end, fermentation stabilizes the urine biochemically to
avert smell and retain nutrients. At such miniaturized scale
this has never been done before, therefore Anthroponix
was a risky and emergent undertaking. Yet being
persuasive, the consequential foodloop enrolled in spring 2017 for
almost two months, 22 participants who wanted to improve their
eating and urine output for growing healthier plants. Participants
collected/tested/fermented a small urine sample in their homes,
every day in the first three weeks, for growing lettuce thereof in the
second half of the project. The necessary materials, knowledge and
support was provided in five, biweekly afternoon workshops.
The quality of each urine sample was carefully interrelated with the
prospering of the lettuce plant. Participants received testing strips to
check on health-related indicators in their urine, and monitored the
fertilizer solution as well as plant growth with reference guides. An
elaborate journal assisted in recording bidirectionally the flourishing
in humans (eating, bodycare, urination), and nonhuman players
(ferment, fertilizer, plant). This plant/human co-evolution was also
carried into the workshops through presentations that emphasized
the similarities in anatomy and functioning across life forms.
Balancing joint task with gratifying involvement
Because the procedures had been downscaled in the last minute
and thereby were untested, the technical setup of Anthroponix was
flawed. Already on day one, the urine containers leaked, since the
bacteria were stronger than the centrifugal tubes. And most lettuc-
es remained stunted since the planters were too small for properly
mineralizing the urine’s nutrients. Confronted with these limitations,
facilitators had to quickly surrender their pride and admit shortcom-
ings, while participants had to relinquish expectations and pitch
in with own expertise. Despite the trouble, nobody quit, and most
participants evidently enjoyed the process. The question was, why
participants stayed on, and what motivated them to act in the com-
mon interest for advancing the project rather than giving up.
The evaluation showed that participants with stronger involvement
in the group, stayed more engaged in their daily duties. Crucial was
photo: Sarah Daher
71
the direct involvement with peers which brought purpose
to the group and fulfilment to participants. Especially the
interplay of individual tasks at home with group ex-
change, and phases of action with in-action, engendered
a collective curiosity where participants were eager to
know where the shared journey was destined to.
Bringing material responsibility into the everyday
Anthroponix struck a fine balance where self-investment
in the joint task was alluring, while direct social engage-
ment brought out individual gratification. In combination,
this dynamic opened social synergies for confronting
challenges bigger than oneself. This failure-friendliness
permitted explorative and shared learning about redistrib-
uting material responsibilities. Stepping beyond unhelpful
dualities like success or failure, Anthroponix made room
for restorative skills, like vigilance, reflection, repair, and
maintenance—precisely the virtues for addressing the
unhealthy imbalances of current human organization.
Since these virtues are rooted in the everyday, it implies to
pay better attention to peoples’ desire for fulfilment and
community. Creative practice then is asked to shift tastes,
preferences and criticalities towards the very continuities
and circulations our living foundation depends upon.
Acknowledgements
Anthroponix was realised in collaboration with Sarah
Daher and made possible with a Seed Grant from Design
Trust in Hong Kong, and Internationalization Grant from
Dutch Creative Industries NL in Rotterdam.
photo: Sarah Daher
71
the direct involvement with peers which brought purpose
to the group and fulfilment to participants. Especially the
interplay of individual tasks at home with group ex-
change, and phases of action with in-action, engendered
a collective curiosity where participants were eager to
know where the shared journey was destined to.
Bringing material responsibility into the everyday
Anthroponix struck a fine balance where self-investment
in the joint task was alluring, while direct social engage-
ment brought out individual gratification. In combination,
this dynamic opened social synergies for confronting
challenges bigger than oneself. This failure-friendliness
permitted explorative and shared learning about redistrib-
uting material responsibilities. Stepping beyond unhelpful
dualities like success or failure, Anthroponix made room
for restorative skills, like vigilance, reflection, repair, and
maintenance—precisely the virtues for addressing the
unhealthy imbalances of current human organization.
Since these virtues are rooted in the everyday, it implies to
pay better attention to peoples’ desire for fulfilment and
community. Creative practice then is asked to shift tastes,
preferences and criticalities towards the very continuities
and circulations our living foundation depends upon.
Acknowledgements
Anthroponix was realised in collaboration with Sarah
Daher and made possible with a Seed Grant from Design
Trust in Hong Kong, and Internationalization Grant from
Dutch Creative Industries NL in Rotterdam.
photo: Sarah Daher
in conversation...
72
photo: Sarah Daher
Markus Wernli, Sophia Wunderlich,
Neil Williams & Benson Law
in conversation...
72
photo: Sarah Daher
Markus Wernli, Sophia Wunderlich,
Neil Williams & Benson Law
74
75
In conversation with Markus Wernli, Sophie Wunderlich, Neil
Williams, and Benson Law, Hong Kong, September 3, 2019.
RP Welcome Markus, I’m looking forward to our
conversation.
MW So there should be Neil, Benson should join me
soon ( he’ll be with me because he doesn’t use Skype)
then I hope that Sophie is also coming online. I think
that’s everyone. Sophie and Neil, they were participants,
Benson was a co-facilitator acting as a marketing expert
and a videographer of the project.
RP Excellent. So before the others come in Markus, can
you just tell me a little about how your projects develop
and how you work with teams and that sort of thing.
MW This Anthroponix project was gradually building up
during my PhD studies. Basically two and half years were
leading up to it. I tried to find a place for human waste
in the context of Hong Kong. I did various interventions:
composting project, soil cooking events, engaging with
existing roof-top farms – Hong Kong university for exam-
ple – all kinds of activation events. And then always a chal-
lenge was to engage people over a longer period of time.
Not just facilitating a “green afternoon” that makes people
feel a little bit better at the educational farm where they
learn a little bit about soil. Rather, I was interested in
engaging people over weeks or months into a co-crafting
venture. That was my goal. Eventually we focused on urine
fermentation and then this idea of connecting this with
horticulture – hydroponics, water-based plant cultivation.
During these efforts of doing all kinds of workshops with
permaculture groups, educational farms, the University
roof-top garden etc. it created a certain following of inter-
ested people.
People knew about my work, some were curious,
word of mouth…and then we put out the call [for the
Anthroponix project] to which more than 40 applicants re-
sponded, so I could be selective with whom to work with.
Eventually we accepted twenty-two participants. We had
these intake interviews where we could see what people’s
motivations were and whether they were prepared to go
into an experiment. Everybody knew that it was some-
thing fairly untested.
RP I think Sophie has joined us. Yes?
SW Hi - how’s it going?
MW Hey Sophie. Thanks for making time and joining us.
How are you?
SW My pleasure! I’m OK but I just consumed some news
about Hong Kong — it’s a hot topic that keeps us on the
go.1
RP It must be very difficult. Mind you, the UK is pretty
crazy right now, too.2
SW It is…interesting times. Are we still waiting for other
people?
MW We are waiting for Benson. Benson is going to join
me, in person. He’s coming, he’s on his way from work. He
may be a little bit late so maybe she should start. Let’s wait
a few more minutes maybe.
NW Can you hear me OK? I’m in the call now.
RP So where is everyone coming from today? Where are
you coming in from?
NW I’m in Hong Kong. I’m in Shek O (石澳). It’s a small
village on the southeast corner of Hong Kong island.
SW So we have one UK and three Hong Kong and then
one other Hong Kong’er joining.
MW Have you been to Hong Kong Richard? It’s something
I’ve often thought about but I’ve never been.
RP No, never have. I’ve not experienced it other than in
myth and legend.
[group laughs]
RP How receptive is Hong Kong to your project and to
some of these idea. Would you describe it as a progressive
city?
MW I don’t have any judgement, but as for me, I don’t try
to convert people who are on the other side of the spec-
trum. I work with people who are somehow like-minded.
Who are interested somehow in relating to natural pro-
cesses or have an ecological sensibility. That’s what I learnt
in Hong Kong — not to become a kind of missionary… I
don’t know, maybe Sophie and Neil can pitch in?
SW Well, I would say your project is very unique in Hong
Kong. Most people are not very concerned. They don’t talk
about environmental issues much. I would say the general
level of awareness, compared to say most European coun-
tries or UK ( is rather low )… When I first moved to Hong
Kong, I was trying to find like-minded people and it wasn’t
easy at first. Eventually you will find them but the commu-
nity is quite small — everybody knows everybody else.
§ § §
MW The first will be self-introductions where we go
around the three participants who are here today — I
count you, Benson, as a participant because you were
present in most of the workshops, so your perspective is
interesting as a semi-outsider.
SW My name is Sophia Wunderlich. I’m originally from
Germany and moved to Hong Kong in 2012. I have
studied biochemistry and have a Masters in Engineering
in urban plant management. I came to Hong Kong for
a research project on urban planning and then decided
to stay here. I started a little business in Hong Kong with
fermenting organic vegetables, so that was a little food
enterprise. I was teaching workshops and just like trying
to educate people about how they can make their own
fermented foods, and teaching them methods about how
to connect to their own bodies. Because when we make
fermented food the way I teach it is to use your hands
and you inoculate the food with a culture that might be
on your hands. So, you are also creating a connection
through food to your own body and to the environment
[what David Zilber (2019) calls “the microbial terroir”] . So I
was already very into this topic when Markus approached
me and told me about Anthroponix.
MW If you could sum up the project in three sentences…
what happened for you in this project?
SW I fermented my urine and grew plants and I watched
how the different urine samples had an impact or no
impact perhaps on the plant growth. It helped me to
become more aware and conscious about what I put into
my body because that would directly impact the quality
of my urine and that would impact plant growth. So, for
me it was all about studying my relationship to food, and
also to the natural world, like the plants and the things
that are directly connected somehow to my body through
urine as a medium.
74
75
In conversation with Markus Wernli, Sophie Wunderlich, Neil
Williams, and Benson Law, Hong Kong, September 3, 2019.
RP Welcome Markus, I’m looking forward to our
conversation.
MW So there should be Neil, Benson should join me
soon ( he’ll be with me because he doesn’t use Skype)
then I hope that Sophie is also coming online. I think
that’s everyone. Sophie and Neil, they were participants,
Benson was a co-facilitator acting as a marketing expert
and a videographer of the project.
RP Excellent. So before the others come in Markus, can
you just tell me a little about how your projects develop
and how you work with teams and that sort of thing.
MW This Anthroponix project was gradually building up
during my PhD studies. Basically two and half years were
leading up to it. I tried to find a place for human waste
in the context of Hong Kong. I did various interventions:
composting project, soil cooking events, engaging with
existing roof-top farms – Hong Kong university for exam-
ple – all kinds of activation events. And then always a chal-
lenge was to engage people over a longer period of time.
Not just facilitating a “green afternoon” that makes people
feel a little bit better at the educational farm where they
learn a little bit about soil. Rather, I was interested in
engaging people over weeks or months into a co-crafting
venture. That was my goal. Eventually we focused on urine
fermentation and then this idea of connecting this with
horticulture – hydroponics, water-based plant cultivation.
During these efforts of doing all kinds of workshops with
permaculture groups, educational farms, the University
roof-top garden etc. it created a certain following of inter-
ested people.
People knew about my work, some were curious,
word of mouth…and then we put out the call [for the
Anthroponix project] to which more than 40 applicants re-
sponded, so I could be selective with whom to work with.
Eventually we accepted twenty-two participants. We had
these intake interviews where we could see what people’s
motivations were and whether they were prepared to go
into an experiment. Everybody knew that it was some-
thing fairly untested.
RP I think Sophie has joined us. Yes?
SW Hi - how’s it going?
MW Hey Sophie. Thanks for making time and joining us.
How are you?
SW My pleasure! I’m OK but I just consumed some news
about Hong Kong — it’s a hot topic that keeps us on the
go.1
RP It must be very difficult. Mind you, the UK is pretty
crazy right now, too.2
SW It is…interesting times. Are we still waiting for other
people?
MW We are waiting for Benson. Benson is going to join
me, in person. He’s coming, he’s on his way from work. He
may be a little bit late so maybe she should start. Let’s wait
a few more minutes maybe.
NW Can you hear me OK? I’m in the call now.
RP So where is everyone coming from today? Where are
you coming in from?
NW I’m in Hong Kong. I’m in Shek O (石澳). It’s a small
village on the southeast corner of Hong Kong island.
SW So we have one UK and three Hong Kong and then
one other Hong Kong’er joining.
MW Have you been to Hong Kong Richard? It’s something
I’ve often thought about but I’ve never been.
RP No, never have. I’ve not experienced it other than in
myth and legend.
[group laughs]
RP How receptive is Hong Kong to your project and to
some of these idea. Would you describe it as a progressive
city?
MW I don’t have any judgement, but as for me, I don’t try
to convert people who are on the other side of the spec-
trum. I work with people who are somehow like-minded.
Who are interested somehow in relating to natural pro-
cesses or have an ecological sensibility. That’s what I learnt
in Hong Kong — not to become a kind of missionary… I
don’t know, maybe Sophie and Neil can pitch in?
SW Well, I would say your project is very unique in Hong
Kong. Most people are not very concerned. They don’t talk
about environmental issues much. I would say the general
level of awareness, compared to say most European coun-
tries or UK ( is rather low )… When I first moved to Hong
Kong, I was trying to find like-minded people and it wasn’t
easy at first. Eventually you will find them but the commu-
nity is quite small — everybody knows everybody else.
§ § §
MW The first will be self-introductions where we go
around the three participants who are here today — I
count you, Benson, as a participant because you were
present in most of the workshops, so your perspective is
interesting as a semi-outsider.
SW My name is Sophia Wunderlich. I’m originally from
Germany and moved to Hong Kong in 2012. I have
studied biochemistry and have a Masters in Engineering
in urban plant management. I came to Hong Kong for
a research project on urban planning and then decided
to stay here. I started a little business in Hong Kong with
fermenting organic vegetables, so that was a little food
enterprise. I was teaching workshops and just like trying
to educate people about how they can make their own
fermented foods, and teaching them methods about how
to connect to their own bodies. Because when we make
fermented food the way I teach it is to use your hands
and you inoculate the food with a culture that might be
on your hands. So, you are also creating a connection
through food to your own body and to the environment
[what David Zilber (2019) calls “the microbial terroir”] . So I
was already very into this topic when Markus approached
me and told me about Anthroponix.
MW If you could sum up the project in three sentences…
what happened for you in this project?
SW I fermented my urine and grew plants and I watched
how the different urine samples had an impact or no
impact perhaps on the plant growth. It helped me to
become more aware and conscious about what I put into
my body because that would directly impact the quality
of my urine and that would impact plant growth. So, for
me it was all about studying my relationship to food, and
also to the natural world, like the plants and the things
that are directly connected somehow to my body through
urine as a medium.
76
77
MW That sounds almost too wonderful and idealistic. So,
what happened in reality?
[group laughs]
SW I would say that was the objective. In reality the plants
grew fairly well, there was not that much of a difference
when it came to plant growth — there was nothing I
could really tell. I didn’t do any lab tests on it, so I can’t tell
if the different urine samples really had an impact on the
plants. But the thing is that I became more conscious of
what I put inside my body and that was very interesting.
Also, [after the project] I kept using the fermented urine
for my plants — I’ve been running some roof-top farms
and that was a wonderful source of free fertiliser — so I
very much liked this idea and kept using it.
MW Do you feel you had a specific role in the project?
What was your status?
SW Maybe because I had some prior experience with fer-
mentation, I could offer some technical advice on how to
ferment. And also, when it came to plant growth — you
know that’s my patch [domain] — I could check on how
the plants are doing and discuss with other people, [like,
you know], how’s your plant? Why is it not growing well?
So, I was able to have some technical input.
MW I think you were some sort of a mentor not only for
your peers but also for me when it came to preparing the
workshops or reflecting upon. I think you pitched in with
your more scientific background. I highly appreciated it.
SW How was I invited? I think you invited me personally
because we were already friends at that point. I wanted to
support you.
MW Over to you Neil…
NW Hi, my name’s Neil Williams, I’m from the UK, originally
from Guernsey originally. I came to Hong Kong in 2003 by
way of London. My background is in design, in designing
visitor experiences for museums and exhibitions and
I came to Hong Kong to work on a big wetland visitor
centre. I’ve done a number of different environmental
education centres. I had an interest anyway in that area.
I came to know Markus through PolyU [School of Design
at Hong Kong Polytechnic University], and my capstone
project for my MDes was around urban farming and urban
food production in Hong Kong. I had various discussions
with Markus about that. So, we knew each other through
those things.
When Markus contacted me, I was part of the way
through the process of setting up a home hydroponic sys-
tem – actually two systems, one indoors and one on the
roof. I was running it by solar and I was looking at ways to
shortcut the system, so that I didn’t have to buy external
materials for potting but also for a nutrient solution. So,
I was really interested, and the idea of organic ways of
creating nutrient solution locally, rather than having to…
essentially, I was using chemicals and I didn’t know the
origins of them. So, I was super-interested in the project
from that perspective.
For me the project was more interesting from the per-
spective of me understanding my body, what I was put-
ting in it, and putting on it. As of that point, I completely
changed the types of things I washed myself with, deo-
dorants I used, etc. I totally changed from the point where
I started to record everything. The growing for me didn’t
work particularly well. I felt that the scale was a bit too
small to really see the impact and a lot of my seeds didn’t
do very well, they got rot and a lot of algae – when the
light gets in to the water. So, I didn’t have very successful
growing. But the self-analysis part was super-interest-
ing and also the social aspect of peeing into a test-tube
every day and then racking it up in the flat with my family
around, wondering if I’d gone completely mad. That was
particularly interesting – when the lids popped off.
MW What was happening with the lids?
NW The carbon dioxide built up, so… this is was before
we started taping them down, in the first week: all the
lids started popping off and stupidly I asked my daughter
if she knew anything about it and she said to me ‘why
would I touch your urine?’ Fair comment! Watching the
chemical effects was interesting, and then doing the
Urinalysis [dye test strips for ten medical health indicators;
similar to a pregnancy test] has changed the way I think
about what I put in and on my body. I was always relative-
ly careful, but I have been more so since I did the project.
So, how was the project for me? I was keen to look at a
scaled-up version of the system that I could use for larger
scale. The [hydroponic] unit I have on my roof requires
quite a lot of nutrient solution – way, way more than I
could produce on a test-tube basis. But I never really man-
aged to come up with a viable solution for that. I think we
also found during testing that the urine alone wasn’t really
adequate — it needed other [complementary] inputs. So,
I’m still thinking about what kind of recipes could be put
together.
MW I think you ended up making your own deodorant
after the project, I remember? As a follow up trial…
NW Yeah, I didn’t get very far with it though…[laughs].
But I’m still thinking about that because it’s still an issue
getting these big bottles of chemicals from the shop and
then taxi-ing them back to my place. It’s not a sustainable
way of growing that I want to manage.
BL I’m Benson Law. I’m a Hong Kong local and I met
Markus three years ago. We knew each other through
common friends and I had helped Markus to shoot a pro-
mo video for another project — the Black Circle project.
And honestly I’m not an eco or farming person. I know
nothing about green life. Because my profession is, you
know, in media — I sell marketing strategies to different
clients from different industries…
MW You work for a newspaper, right?
BL Ah, yes, I work for a local, leading newspaper. I grad-
uated [in media studies] ten years ago, so I have the
knowledge to produce documentary video which is use-
ful [garbled]. Markus first same to me and invited me to
document the event and cut it into a three-minute video.
But then it turned out to be worth producing a longer
video, around twenty minutes. The footage we have is
very long — around 45 hours — so how to edit it into a
coherent length? We tried to keep it under 30 minutes. We
have spent much time explaining what is the Anthroponix
system. I show it to my friends and family and they find
it rather boring and too technical. A problem for people
who have not been involved in such a project. My mission
is to turn it into something with simple language which
the layperson can understand. And we formulated the
whole video into three parts: we have interviews with
local people from different backgrounds — the first from
a village, then an interview with Daniel who lives in a very
dense urban area; and the last interview is with Richard
who lives in Kwun Tong (觀塘) which is also a dense urban
area and relatively lower income. So, three different per-
sons from different backgrounds.
76
77
MW That sounds almost too wonderful and idealistic. So,
what happened in reality?
[group laughs]
SW I would say that was the objective. In reality the plants
grew fairly well, there was not that much of a difference
when it came to plant growth — there was nothing I
could really tell. I didn’t do any lab tests on it, so I can’t tell
if the different urine samples really had an impact on the
plants. But the thing is that I became more conscious of
what I put inside my body and that was very interesting.
Also, [after the project] I kept using the fermented urine
for my plants — I’ve been running some roof-top farms
and that was a wonderful source of free fertiliser — so I
very much liked this idea and kept using it.
MW Do you feel you had a specific role in the project?
What was your status?
SW Maybe because I had some prior experience with fer-
mentation, I could offer some technical advice on how to
ferment. And also, when it came to plant growth — you
know that’s my patch [domain] — I could check on how
the plants are doing and discuss with other people, [like,
you know], how’s your plant? Why is it not growing well?
So, I was able to have some technical input.
MW I think you were some sort of a mentor not only for
your peers but also for me when it came to preparing the
workshops or reflecting upon. I think you pitched in with
your more scientific background. I highly appreciated it.
SW How was I invited? I think you invited me personally
because we were already friends at that point. I wanted to
support you.
MW Over to you Neil…
NW Hi, my name’s Neil Williams, I’m from the UK, originally
from Guernsey originally. I came to Hong Kong in 2003 by
way of London. My background is in design, in designing
visitor experiences for museums and exhibitions and
I came to Hong Kong to work on a big wetland visitor
centre. I’ve done a number of different environmental
education centres. I had an interest anyway in that area.
I came to know Markus through PolyU [School of Design
at Hong Kong Polytechnic University], and my capstone
project for my MDes was around urban farming and urban
food production in Hong Kong. I had various discussions
with Markus about that. So, we knew each other through
those things.
When Markus contacted me, I was part of the way
through the process of setting up a home hydroponic sys-
tem – actually two systems, one indoors and one on the
roof. I was running it by solar and I was looking at ways to
shortcut the system, so that I didn’t have to buy external
materials for potting but also for a nutrient solution. So,
I was really interested, and the idea of organic ways of
creating nutrient solution locally, rather than having to…
essentially, I was using chemicals and I didn’t know the
origins of them. So, I was super-interested in the project
from that perspective.
For me the project was more interesting from the per-
spective of me understanding my body, what I was put-
ting in it, and putting on it. As of that point, I completely
changed the types of things I washed myself with, deo-
dorants I used, etc. I totally changed from the point where
I started to record everything. The growing for me didn’t
work particularly well. I felt that the scale was a bit too
small to really see the impact and a lot of my seeds didn’t
do very well, they got rot and a lot of algae – when the
light gets in to the water. So, I didn’t have very successful
growing. But the self-analysis part was super-interest-
ing and also the social aspect of peeing into a test-tube
every day and then racking it up in the flat with my family
around, wondering if I’d gone completely mad. That was
particularly interesting – when the lids popped off.
MW What was happening with the lids?
NW The carbon dioxide built up, so… this is was before
we started taping them down, in the first week: all the
lids started popping off and stupidly I asked my daughter
if she knew anything about it and she said to me ‘why
would I touch your urine?’ Fair comment! Watching the
chemical effects was interesting, and then doing the
Urinalysis [dye test strips for ten medical health indicators;
similar to a pregnancy test] has changed the way I think
about what I put in and on my body. I was always relative-
ly careful, but I have been more so since I did the project.
So, how was the project for me? I was keen to look at a
scaled-up version of the system that I could use for larger
scale. The [hydroponic] unit I have on my roof requires
quite a lot of nutrient solution – way, way more than I
could produce on a test-tube basis. But I never really man-
aged to come up with a viable solution for that. I think we
also found during testing that the urine alone wasn’t really
adequate — it needed other [complementary] inputs. So,
I’m still thinking about what kind of recipes could be put
together.
MW I think you ended up making your own deodorant
after the project, I remember? As a follow up trial…
NW Yeah, I didn’t get very far with it though…[laughs].
But I’m still thinking about that because it’s still an issue
getting these big bottles of chemicals from the shop and
then taxi-ing them back to my place. It’s not a sustainable
way of growing that I want to manage.
BL I’m Benson Law. I’m a Hong Kong local and I met
Markus three years ago. We knew each other through
common friends and I had helped Markus to shoot a pro-
mo video for another project — the Black Circle project.
And honestly I’m not an eco or farming person. I know
nothing about green life. Because my profession is, you
know, in media — I sell marketing strategies to different
clients from different industries…
MW You work for a newspaper, right?
BL Ah, yes, I work for a local, leading newspaper. I grad-
uated [in media studies] ten years ago, so I have the
knowledge to produce documentary video which is use-
ful [garbled]. Markus first same to me and invited me to
document the event and cut it into a three-minute video.
But then it turned out to be worth producing a longer
video, around twenty minutes. The footage we have is
very long — around 45 hours — so how to edit it into a
coherent length? We tried to keep it under 30 minutes. We
have spent much time explaining what is the Anthroponix
system. I show it to my friends and family and they find
it rather boring and too technical. A problem for people
who have not been involved in such a project. My mission
is to turn it into something with simple language which
the layperson can understand. And we formulated the
whole video into three parts: we have interviews with
local people from different backgrounds — the first from
a village, then an interview with Daniel who lives in a very
dense urban area; and the last interview is with Richard
who lives in Kwun Tong (觀塘) which is also a dense urban
area and relatively lower income. So, three different per-
sons from different backgrounds.
78
79
MW I want to say that Benson was also elementary in
setting up the communication strategy for the project -
Remember, we had many, many meetings? Can you talk
about that?
BL Yes, that’s right. But I would like to focus on the urine.
Because in Chinese culture we consider urine and faeces
a dirty thing. It’s like a taboo, which everyone will avoid
talking about face-to-face. And also, we usually don’t put
this in words. So, we have to think about poetic names
for the project and a poetic way to describe it. But I forgot
now what that was…
MW At the very beginning we called the project ‘Golden
Growing’ in English, but then Neil had some problems
with that…
NW Yeah, golden (…)
BL As I remember we talked about the qi (氣) of China’s
culture – the flow of energy. And how to connect yourself
with the environment and how to connect the energy
from the environment to empower yourself. So, we found
this very poetic and easier to communicate and to en-
gage local people. I think we did good work here.
Another thing is that we give the project somehow more
a bit of a commercial touch. Like we have produced a
modular, small tool kit kid’s set. Because in Hong Kong
there are several similar [upskilling] projects coming out
every month, but they are all very abstract and they are
all like a seminar – only the speaker will speak and no
one will respond. This is somehow the culture of Hong
Kong people, Hong Kong students. They are looking for
some souvenir from every event. So, we decided to turn
it into a more commercial structured event [garbled]…
[We gave participants] a box which contained many
items. We categorised segmented it in five parts for clear
understanding. So everyone should bring back home the
process after every workshop.
We had five workshops, we had modular elements so they
would gradually get the materials and the skills and some
exchanges and then come back with the result — what
they were growing at home — hopefully. And I think
Markus did a great job on the design of the journal which
was used to monitor urine and plants participate. It gave
participants a more poetic aspect to the project. And
some students with an arts background found this very
interesting because they seldom talk to themselves, they
seldom work towards a longer term goal plan. For me as a
Hong Kong person I discover it is very special to [garbled].
MW I think we can segue into the next section which is
about collaboration. The project took place not primar-
ily at these five workshops — which were packed, they
had a lot of stuff going on, materially, and in terms of the
knowledge they conveyed, and what was exchanged. But
most of the project took place at the participants’ homes.
That was a special setup. How was the experience for you
Neil and Sophie? About that, this kind of tandem between
home and workshop?
NW Most of the experience was at home. There’s not just
home since with the workshops comes also the travel
back and forth as well. So, walking around Hong Kong
with a bag full of test-tubes filled with semi-fermented
urine was quite an interesting experience. People tended
not to see — I kept everything in a shopping bag — but
that’s kind of strange, knowing what you’re walking
around with and knowing how the people around you
would probably react it they realised.
The experience at home… my family kind of tolerated me
doing it but to them it was pretty icky…dipping paper
into tubes of urine and trying to read the numbers. This is
the first thing I did every morning at six. So, getting into
that routine was an interesting experience which every-
one got used to but to be honest my family stayed as far
away as they could.
The experience of meeting the people in the workshops
was fun — seeing how people were adapting techniques
to make their plants group. For example, one of the peo-
ple had set up an electronic pump for all of their hoses,
instead of needing to blow air into the tubes all the time,
which was pretty clever. I think there were other experi-
ments with artificial lighting and other ways to try to keep
[the plant growth] growing. [Some people found] ways of
taping the tubes to keep the light out, etc. That was an in-
teresting experience, and just listening to people sharing
as well, that was interesting as well.
SW Yeah, my experience was fairly similar. The transport
part [laughs], walking around with a bag full of samples
was always funny. I was concerned not to spill anything.
At home — actually I was the person using the electronic
pump, so I had the plants hidden, I had them near win-
dows, behind the couch. So, when we had visitors, no one
would see it — unless I showed them. And for the urine
samples I kept those in a cupboard, so basically it was all
hidden. So, it was just me interacting with it.
MW Do you live alone?
SW No, I live with my boyfriend and he knew about it and
he was fine. But I kept the plants in places that were not
very visible in case, you know, someone just walked in, like
a neighbour — sometimes neighbours come. So, I had
everything hidden from view.
There was a lot journaling involved which was a little bit
new to me, so I had to get used to that. But apart from
that I really enjoyed that we had regular workshops where
we could talk about it and share our experiences. The
whole group was pretty active so there were many ways
to connect to other people which also helped me to keep
going. I don’t fully remember how long the project was
— at least five weeks? So, it was a fairly long time to keep
journaling every single day.
NW Now I think of it, the journaling was pretty hard.
When it started off, it wasn’t too bad but it did become
quite tedious actually, I have to say. Especially trying to
record all the details of the test strips, which were pretty
difficult to read. They were time-dependent, too, so it was
difficult to manage all of that. Later, when my plants were
dying off so there wasn’t much to really record either, so
that became more of a hassle.
RP Can I ask a question about the journaling? Was it the
intention to record, to keep a scientific record, or was it
also for you to talk about your own feelings about the
project?
MW The ‘eating’ section had space for participants to put
down with whom they ate, the social aspect of eating,
how they felt; emotional aspects of the body, how they
slept; so they had space for that, for the emotional con-
tinuum to put that down. Since we had really low-tech,
analogue measuring and monitoring devices, so I think
that the scientific aspect was a bit elusive. There were too
many variables to control. Some participants mentioned
that it became more like a springboard of their imagina-
tion where they were thinking… Even though they didn’t
grow much but they were thinking about the implications
78
79
MW I want to say that Benson was also elementary in
setting up the communication strategy for the project -
Remember, we had many, many meetings? Can you talk
about that?
BL Yes, that’s right. But I would like to focus on the urine.
Because in Chinese culture we consider urine and faeces
a dirty thing. It’s like a taboo, which everyone will avoid
talking about face-to-face. And also, we usually don’t put
this in words. So, we have to think about poetic names
for the project and a poetic way to describe it. But I forgot
now what that was…
MW At the very beginning we called the project ‘Golden
Growing’ in English, but then Neil had some problems
with that…
NW Yeah, golden (…)
BL As I remember we talked about the qi (氣) of China’s
culture – the flow of energy. And how to connect yourself
with the environment and how to connect the energy
from the environment to empower yourself. So, we found
this very poetic and easier to communicate and to en-
gage local people. I think we did good work here.
Another thing is that we give the project somehow more
a bit of a commercial touch. Like we have produced a
modular, small tool kit kid’s set. Because in Hong Kong
there are several similar [upskilling] projects coming out
every month, but they are all very abstract and they are
all like a seminar – only the speaker will speak and no
one will respond. This is somehow the culture of Hong
Kong people, Hong Kong students. They are looking for
some souvenir from every event. So, we decided to turn
it into a more commercial structured event [garbled]…
[We gave participants] a box which contained many
items. We categorised segmented it in five parts for clear
understanding. So everyone should bring back home the
process after every workshop.
We had five workshops, we had modular elements so they
would gradually get the materials and the skills and some
exchanges and then come back with the result — what
they were growing at home — hopefully. And I think
Markus did a great job on the design of the journal which
was used to monitor urine and plants participate. It gave
participants a more poetic aspect to the project. And
some students with an arts background found this very
interesting because they seldom talk to themselves, they
seldom work towards a longer term goal plan. For me as a
Hong Kong person I discover it is very special to [garbled].
MW I think we can segue into the next section which is
about collaboration. The project took place not primar-
ily at these five workshops — which were packed, they
had a lot of stuff going on, materially, and in terms of the
knowledge they conveyed, and what was exchanged. But
most of the project took place at the participants’ homes.
That was a special setup. How was the experience for you
Neil and Sophie? About that, this kind of tandem between
home and workshop?
NW Most of the experience was at home. There’s not just
home since with the workshops comes also the travel
back and forth as well. So, walking around Hong Kong
with a bag full of test-tubes filled with semi-fermented
urine was quite an interesting experience. People tended
not to see — I kept everything in a shopping bag — but
that’s kind of strange, knowing what you’re walking
around with and knowing how the people around you
would probably react it they realised.
The experience at home… my family kind of tolerated me
doing it but to them it was pretty icky…dipping paper
into tubes of urine and trying to read the numbers. This is
the first thing I did every morning at six. So, getting into
that routine was an interesting experience which every-
one got used to but to be honest my family stayed as far
away as they could.
The experience of meeting the people in the workshops
was fun — seeing how people were adapting techniques
to make their plants group. For example, one of the peo-
ple had set up an electronic pump for all of their hoses,
instead of needing to blow air into the tubes all the time,
which was pretty clever. I think there were other experi-
ments with artificial lighting and other ways to try to keep
[the plant growth] growing. [Some people found] ways of
taping the tubes to keep the light out, etc. That was an in-
teresting experience, and just listening to people sharing
as well, that was interesting as well.
SW Yeah, my experience was fairly similar. The transport
part [laughs], walking around with a bag full of samples
was always funny. I was concerned not to spill anything.
At home — actually I was the person using the electronic
pump, so I had the plants hidden, I had them near win-
dows, behind the couch. So, when we had visitors, no one
would see it — unless I showed them. And for the urine
samples I kept those in a cupboard, so basically it was all
hidden. So, it was just me interacting with it.
MW Do you live alone?
SW No, I live with my boyfriend and he knew about it and
he was fine. But I kept the plants in places that were not
very visible in case, you know, someone just walked in, like
a neighbour — sometimes neighbours come. So, I had
everything hidden from view.
There was a lot journaling involved which was a little bit
new to me, so I had to get used to that. But apart from
that I really enjoyed that we had regular workshops where
we could talk about it and share our experiences. The
whole group was pretty active so there were many ways
to connect to other people which also helped me to keep
going. I don’t fully remember how long the project was
— at least five weeks? So, it was a fairly long time to keep
journaling every single day.
NW Now I think of it, the journaling was pretty hard.
When it started off, it wasn’t too bad but it did become
quite tedious actually, I have to say. Especially trying to
record all the details of the test strips, which were pretty
difficult to read. They were time-dependent, too, so it was
difficult to manage all of that. Later, when my plants were
dying off so there wasn’t much to really record either, so
that became more of a hassle.
RP Can I ask a question about the journaling? Was it the
intention to record, to keep a scientific record, or was it
also for you to talk about your own feelings about the
project?
MW The ‘eating’ section had space for participants to put
down with whom they ate, the social aspect of eating,
how they felt; emotional aspects of the body, how they
slept; so they had space for that, for the emotional con-
tinuum to put that down. Since we had really low-tech,
analogue measuring and monitoring devices, so I think
that the scientific aspect was a bit elusive. There were too
many variables to control. Some participants mentioned
that it became more like a springboard of their imagina-
tion where they were thinking… Even though they didn’t
grow much but they were thinking about the implications
80
81
of the urine and what they were eating in regard to the
potential of what would come out of it.
§ § §
To speak for a little about the science aspect. The project
was hosted by a design school. My background is obvi-
ously in fine art and design but it had a certain scientific
or technical ambition. How did that work out for you as
participants?
NW Obviously, I was interested in understanding the
system quantities from a scaling perspective. How it could
be scaled up? And being able to monitor the impact and
any deficiencies, but it turned out it was very hard to tell,
very hard to track. There were a lot of external factors I
think that influenced the seeds, more than the nutrients.
Obviously, the seeds have their own nutrients when they
start to grow, so they shoot up anyway unless there’s a
problem. But then you’ve got fungus, you’ve got algae,
you’ve got over-saturation. So, there was various different
external factors that had an influence, and made it very
hard to tell what [is happening]…to make really a scientif-
ic experiment in that sense.
We tried playing around the seaweed as an additive, but
at that point my plants weren’t in a fit state for that to
help.
But yeah, it was interesting to have that many samples, to
be able to track them and see what difference or impact
that would have. The reality was, I think, less than I would
have hoped, but it was still an interesting experiment to
try.
SW As Neil just said, there were so many factors involved
that could have had an impact. For example, when it
comes to planting, I knew that a lot of people have very
tiny homes, no window or not enough light, so it’s very
hard to grow a plant without sufficient light.
Or it may be very hot – summers in Hong Kong are very
hot – so there could be so many other reasons why a
plant is not growing well other than just nutrients. To me
it didn’t feel like a very scientific experiment in this sense.
But it was very thought-provoking and that was the inter-
esting part for me. And also, it actually made me think, ‘if I
was to do it again as a proper scientific experiment, how
would I do it? Which factors would I try to eliminate?’ So, it
just kept me thinking about it. For me that was the whole
point of this project.
MW So if we would do it more scientifically, would it still
have the same social quality? It obviously had a social dy-
namic because 22 participants stayed in what scientifically
looks like a failed project. Clearly, [on that level] it failed: it
was a technical disaster.
SW I don’t think it would have the same social quality
because, you know, everyone did this at home, everyone
has a different home, different conditions at home, so you
cannot really compare that. But just bringing these people
together, and have them talk about it and just think about
whether urine could actually be a resource and not a
waste [product], I think…if you were to do it very, very
scientifically, you would lose that because the idea is to try
it at home and not be too focused on a specific outcome
but just focus on trying something new. That was my take.
NW For me it was more… it felt more interesting from
a personal perspective to analyse my own body out-
put and input and then track changes. That for me was
the more interesting part than growing the plants. The
input and the output from my own body was something
I could really measure and review and I found that
super-interesting.
MW And it seems that was a point of connection be-
tween people. I remember we talked about air quality in
Hong Kong, we talked about contaminants in the food,
about the use of pharmaceuticals… so suddenly the
circulation of urine became a medium of exchange and
social connection.
BL I would like to share some circumstance of Hong
Kong now today. The youngsters embrace a DIY culture.
Because we are not able to gain some political independ-
ence, we want to realise a different kind of independence
in the different aspect of our lives. So, through this project
people found some independence through manipulating
their own urine. Honestly, we have to think about eating
the pesticides or GMO in our food. But this project I see
quite a lot of students participants exchanging what
they’ve eaten every day. Why does your plant look so
good!? And why does my plant look so unhealthy? Surely
they would then examine what they have eaten. It was a
very special opportunity to have that kind of review.
MW There was a sub-group, a Hong Kong-based Chinese
sub-group, they tried to coordinate their food intake. They
decided, I think, everybody would eat yoghurt — more
probiotics — to see if that would have an influence on the
fermentation or on the Urinalysis values.
BL Hong Kong people like to compare outcomes with
each other [group laughs].
MW A little bit of healthy competition…?
BL Yeah. It’s a good way to increase the awareness
and consciousness of what we are eating. It really is a
unique opportunity for our Chinese culture. As our green
consciousness is not as high as [maybe in] the western
community.
MW Yes, but on the other hand, during the interviews, I
had, many participants who mentioned that they have
relatives in the countryside and they know that their uncle
or grandfather is using or used human waste because
here in Asia it’s still more common to apply human waste
for agricultural use. So, everybody has some sort of story
to tell in that direction, I remember.
In Chinese medicines you also...investigate the colour
of urine and the shape of your faeces etc. These health
connections have been done.
§ § §
MW So you do you think you’re specific backgrounds has
contributed to the overall project? Did you feel like you
had an influence in what was happening, in what was
achieved in this project?
SW If I may start… Even though I do have a technical
background that was relevant to this project, I felt that
actually, it was easy enough for anyone, regardless of their
background, to join and do the project. And that was very
important, that it was very inclusive and anyone could
join, anyone could do it. So, by just doing it and sharing
your experience I could have an influence. So even if I had
zero knowledge of fermentation and biochemistry, I think,
I would still have been a valuable member of this project.
MW So everybody could be valuable? everybody could
be a member?
NW I don’t think my background had any particular
bearing. I was just one member of the group. Obviously,
I’ve been doing hydroponic growing for a while, but in a
80
81
of the urine and what they were eating in regard to the
potential of what would come out of it.
§ § §
To speak for a little about the science aspect. The project
was hosted by a design school. My background is obvi-
ously in fine art and design but it had a certain scientific
or technical ambition. How did that work out for you as
participants?
NW Obviously, I was interested in understanding the
system quantities from a scaling perspective. How it could
be scaled up? And being able to monitor the impact and
any deficiencies, but it turned out it was very hard to tell,
very hard to track. There were a lot of external factors I
think that influenced the seeds, more than the nutrients.
Obviously, the seeds have their own nutrients when they
start to grow, so they shoot up anyway unless there’s a
problem. But then you’ve got fungus, you’ve got algae,
you’ve got over-saturation. So, there was various different
external factors that had an influence, and made it very
hard to tell what [is happening]…to make really a scientif-
ic experiment in that sense.
We tried playing around the seaweed as an additive, but
at that point my plants weren’t in a fit state for that to
help.
But yeah, it was interesting to have that many samples, to
be able to track them and see what difference or impact
that would have. The reality was, I think, less than I would
have hoped, but it was still an interesting experiment to
try.
SW As Neil just said, there were so many factors involved
that could have had an impact. For example, when it
comes to planting, I knew that a lot of people have very
tiny homes, no window or not enough light, so it’s very
hard to grow a plant without sufficient light.
Or it may be very hot – summers in Hong Kong are very
hot – so there could be so many other reasons why a
plant is not growing well other than just nutrients. To me
it didn’t feel like a very scientific experiment in this sense.
But it was very thought-provoking and that was the inter-
esting part for me. And also, it actually made me think, ‘if I
was to do it again as a proper scientific experiment, how
would I do it? Which factors would I try to eliminate?’ So, it
just kept me thinking about it. For me that was the whole
point of this project.
MW So if we would do it more scientifically, would it still
have the same social quality? It obviously had a social dy-
namic because 22 participants stayed in what scientifically
looks like a failed project. Clearly, [on that level] it failed: it
was a technical disaster.
SW I don’t think it would have the same social quality
because, you know, everyone did this at home, everyone
has a different home, different conditions at home, so you
cannot really compare that. But just bringing these people
together, and have them talk about it and just think about
whether urine could actually be a resource and not a
waste [product], I think…if you were to do it very, very
scientifically, you would lose that because the idea is to try
it at home and not be too focused on a specific outcome
but just focus on trying something new. That was my take.
NW For me it was more… it felt more interesting from
a personal perspective to analyse my own body out-
put and input and then track changes. That for me was
the more interesting part than growing the plants. The
input and the output from my own body was something
I could really measure and review and I found that
super-interesting.
MW And it seems that was a point of connection be-
tween people. I remember we talked about air quality in
Hong Kong, we talked about contaminants in the food,
about the use of pharmaceuticals… so suddenly the
circulation of urine became a medium of exchange and
social connection.
BL I would like to share some circumstance of Hong
Kong now today. The youngsters embrace a DIY culture.
Because we are not able to gain some political independ-
ence, we want to realise a different kind of independence
in the different aspect of our lives. So, through this project
people found some independence through manipulating
their own urine. Honestly, we have to think about eating
the pesticides or GMO in our food. But this project I see
quite a lot of students participants exchanging what
they’ve eaten every day. Why does your plant look so
good!? And why does my plant look so unhealthy? Surely
they would then examine what they have eaten. It was a
very special opportunity to have that kind of review.
MW There was a sub-group, a Hong Kong-based Chinese
sub-group, they tried to coordinate their food intake. They
decided, I think, everybody would eat yoghurt — more
probiotics — to see if that would have an influence on the
fermentation or on the Urinalysis values.
BL Hong Kong people like to compare outcomes with
each other [group laughs].
MW A little bit of healthy competition…?
BL Yeah. It’s a good way to increase the awareness
and consciousness of what we are eating. It really is a
unique opportunity for our Chinese culture. As our green
consciousness is not as high as [maybe in] the western
community.
MW Yes, but on the other hand, during the interviews, I
had, many participants who mentioned that they have
relatives in the countryside and they know that their uncle
or grandfather is using or used human waste because
here in Asia it’s still more common to apply human waste
for agricultural use. So, everybody has some sort of story
to tell in that direction, I remember.
In Chinese medicines you also...investigate the colour
of urine and the shape of your faeces etc. These health
connections have been done.
§ § §
MW So you do you think you’re specific backgrounds has
contributed to the overall project? Did you feel like you
had an influence in what was happening, in what was
achieved in this project?
SW If I may start… Even though I do have a technical
background that was relevant to this project, I felt that
actually, it was easy enough for anyone, regardless of their
background, to join and do the project. And that was very
important, that it was very inclusive and anyone could
join, anyone could do it. So, by just doing it and sharing
your experience I could have an influence. So even if I had
zero knowledge of fermentation and biochemistry, I think,
I would still have been a valuable member of this project.
MW So everybody could be valuable? everybody could
be a member?
NW I don’t think my background had any particular
bearing. I was just one member of the group. Obviously,
I’ve been doing hydroponic growing for a while, but in a
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much more controlled way, not in such an organic way.
So, that was a learning curve for me. But I don’t think my
background had any real bearing on my participation, I
was just keen to get involved and share with you all.
MW What you think was the role here of design or art? Do
they have any play in this? Could this project have been
hosted by a horticultural institute, or by a biology depart-
ment at Poly U?
NW Errm, I think it could be, but I think what design
brought to the project was a choreographed experience.
The way you packaged everything, the way you graphical-
ly arranged everything. Boxed, prepared… And the way
you coordinated the workshops sessions as well.
MW Why? Why the coordination of the workshops?
NW Well, there was an element of design in that I would
say, a facilitation, a design process to those workshop
sessions that I don’t think you would get without design
input.
SW And also the test-tubes and the boxes, they were very
pretty. It was aesthetically pleasing, which is also impor-
tant as a person who may be sceptical – ‘Oh, I’m working
with my urine’. But then it kind of looks nice and when you
bring it home you feel like ‘oh it kind of looks cool. It looks
artsy or modern or whatever…’ So, I felt like the design
aspect actually made it easier to start and to be like ‘OK,
I’m trying, I’m going for this’.
NW I think the whole journey was designed, if you think
about it from a more holistic perspective. Beyond the aes-
thetics, which was great, the packaging and everything
was all nicely coordinated. But I think you did a good job
of designing the journey, bringing people together in a
way you designed that kind of interaction for people to
frame the way that they responded to the process.
MW So, in or during, or after the process, was it still waste,
your urine? That was the question that quickly came up
among participants, I remember.
SW For me, I know, you had asked me if I would consider
to apply the unused, fermented urine. So, when I go to
the bathroom I think ‘hmmm this could be used better’.
It’s not that I… I used a little bit of it, I started growing mi-
cro-algae. Because one thing I noticed during the project,
we had so much micro-algae growth, and micro-algae
can be used to build an organic air purifier, so actually I
started a whole other project which was inspired by this
project. I kept on fermenting some of my urine to make
micro-algae. But apart from that I did not really contin-
ue fermenting much because it is a time investment,
you have to be very dedicated to it. Maybe sometimes
explaining to people living in your flat, or to other people
what you’re doing can be uncomfortable because it’s a
taboo. But I’m definitely still thinking about it.
NW I had firm intentions to look at ways to scale and
combine these techniques with other forms of nutrients,
like compost teas, and seaweed and whether I could
come up with a formula for an organic nutrient solution
that I could use in hydroponics. But I’ve never managed
to get it right, never managed to make something that
works properly that’s properly soluble and has a balanced
nutrition level. One for the future still…
RP I’d like to ask Benson about this design question and
how you felt, as someone who works in marketing and
image about what difference that made to you about
working with the project. Did it feel like an artist-designed
project?
BL As I’ve mentioned we tried to use a visual approach
to connect to the Chinese culture with some working
through. We have to visualise what we consider is poetic.
This is why the design work, the visualised work, is quite
important in the tool box. Some illustration, like… May I
share some personal experience? Actually, I am singing a
lot, and I am learning with a classical singing teacher, and
like a vocal cord, you cannot see actually but you can feel
the muscle, and the tissue around. Also, the vocalising or-
gans are in yourself, you cannot see them clearly (obvious-
ly) but we need to use our imagination to see our inner
self. The more the visual input, the more the participants
might see themselves.
MW Oh, so you mean visualise, or reconnect that our
body is something whole, the different organs, the liquids,
the juices? What is it called, the Four Humours inside of us,
come together and build up that organism, and then our
organism is part of a much larger organism. Urine being
one of the exchanges, these energy exchanges… Is that
what you mean?
BL Like air from your lungs goes through your vocal cords
and then comes out through your head and your nose.
Obviously, it’s much more materialised…besides, I want
to say, this was not just a scientific project it’s a visual arts
project. It helps you to explore and visualise all the liquids
inside yourself.
MW Through the journal — we called it the Journal of
Mutual Flourishing — this story-building…but also we
presented the content, the scientific content…we tried
to oppose always the human aspect and the non-human
aspect side-by-side. Like show the stunning similarities of
the mango seed when placed next to the human foetus
for example. Or placing the Vitruvian Man upside down
and next to the rhizome of a plant for showing their
functional resemblance… this kind of thing. We pushed
these interspecies relations of course to make you feel like
you are part of something bigger. Like this awe…like we
are part of circulations that are bigger than us. And then I
think with the group dynamic we had also this belonging-
ness on the social level…we had so many very different,
varied people, various characters who came together. But
they kind of established a sense of a shared ‘We’. Like at
the end I felt like ‘yeah, people come back even though
perhaps they are not successful growing anything, or they
had doubts about the project from the very beginning,
but they keep coming back and become part of a group.
Some collegiate experience happened there.
What do you think about this collegium, this camaraderie,
this companionship? Do you feel like something like that
was going on in the group?
NW Yeah, it was very interesting… I mean it’s a pretty
unique experience to go through, there’s not many peo-
ple anywhere who can say that they’ve spent five weeks
fermenting their own urine to grow plants. You know, we
had a very unique experience to share with one another
in terms of how we were doing with the growing, how we
were doing at home, how we were doing recordings of all
of this information. And then the impact it had on the way
we all went through about ourselves and the natural sys-
tems. So, I think that it was a unique experience shared by
a unique group of people in a place where you wouldn’t
expect it, if you know Hong Kong at all. So, all in all pretty
unique in many ways.
SW Yeah, there was definitely a lot a social bonding hap-
pening over the project and shared experience because,
as Neil just mentioned, it is something very unusual to do.
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83
much more controlled way, not in such an organic way.
So, that was a learning curve for me. But I don’t think my
background had any real bearing on my participation, I
was just keen to get involved and share with you all.
MW What you think was the role here of design or art? Do
they have any play in this? Could this project have been
hosted by a horticultural institute, or by a biology depart-
ment at Poly U?
NW Errm, I think it could be, but I think what design
brought to the project was a choreographed experience.
The way you packaged everything, the way you graphical-
ly arranged everything. Boxed, prepared… And the way
you coordinated the workshops sessions as well.
MW Why? Why the coordination of the workshops?
NW Well, there was an element of design in that I would
say, a facilitation, a design process to those workshop
sessions that I don’t think you would get without design
input.
SW And also the test-tubes and the boxes, they were very
pretty. It was aesthetically pleasing, which is also impor-
tant as a person who may be sceptical – ‘Oh, I’m working
with my urine’. But then it kind of looks nice and when you
bring it home you feel like ‘oh it kind of looks cool. It looks
artsy or modern or whatever…’ So, I felt like the design
aspect actually made it easier to start and to be like ‘OK,
I’m trying, I’m going for this’.
NW I think the whole journey was designed, if you think
about it from a more holistic perspective. Beyond the aes-
thetics, which was great, the packaging and everything
was all nicely coordinated. But I think you did a good job
of designing the journey, bringing people together in a
way you designed that kind of interaction for people to
frame the way that they responded to the process.
MW So, in or during, or after the process, was it still waste,
your urine? That was the question that quickly came up
among participants, I remember.
SW For me, I know, you had asked me if I would consider
to apply the unused, fermented urine. So, when I go to
the bathroom I think ‘hmmm this could be used better’.
It’s not that I… I used a little bit of it, I started growing mi-
cro-algae. Because one thing I noticed during the project,
we had so much micro-algae growth, and micro-algae
can be used to build an organic air purifier, so actually I
started a whole other project which was inspired by this
project. I kept on fermenting some of my urine to make
micro-algae. But apart from that I did not really contin-
ue fermenting much because it is a time investment,
you have to be very dedicated to it. Maybe sometimes
explaining to people living in your flat, or to other people
what you’re doing can be uncomfortable because it’s a
taboo. But I’m definitely still thinking about it.
NW I had firm intentions to look at ways to scale and
combine these techniques with other forms of nutrients,
like compost teas, and seaweed and whether I could
come up with a formula for an organic nutrient solution
that I could use in hydroponics. But I’ve never managed
to get it right, never managed to make something that
works properly that’s properly soluble and has a balanced
nutrition level. One for the future still…
RP I’d like to ask Benson about this design question and
how you felt, as someone who works in marketing and
image about what difference that made to you about
working with the project. Did it feel like an artist-designed
project?
BL As I’ve mentioned we tried to use a visual approach
to connect to the Chinese culture with some working
through. We have to visualise what we consider is poetic.
This is why the design work, the visualised work, is quite
important in the tool box. Some illustration, like… May I
share some personal experience? Actually, I am singing a
lot, and I am learning with a classical singing teacher, and
like a vocal cord, you cannot see actually but you can feel
the muscle, and the tissue around. Also, the vocalising or-
gans are in yourself, you cannot see them clearly (obvious-
ly) but we need to use our imagination to see our inner
self. The more the visual input, the more the participants
might see themselves.
MW Oh, so you mean visualise, or reconnect that our
body is something whole, the different organs, the liquids,
the juices? What is it called, the Four Humours inside of us,
come together and build up that organism, and then our
organism is part of a much larger organism. Urine being
one of the exchanges, these energy exchanges… Is that
what you mean?
BL Like air from your lungs goes through your vocal cords
and then comes out through your head and your nose.
Obviously, it’s much more materialised…besides, I want
to say, this was not just a scientific project it’s a visual arts
project. It helps you to explore and visualise all the liquids
inside yourself.
MW Through the journal — we called it the Journal of
Mutual Flourishing — this story-building…but also we
presented the content, the scientific content…we tried
to oppose always the human aspect and the non-human
aspect side-by-side. Like show the stunning similarities of
the mango seed when placed next to the human foetus
for example. Or placing the Vitruvian Man upside down
and next to the rhizome of a plant for showing their
functional resemblance… this kind of thing. We pushed
these interspecies relations of course to make you feel like
you are part of something bigger. Like this awe…like we
are part of circulations that are bigger than us. And then I
think with the group dynamic we had also this belonging-
ness on the social level…we had so many very different,
varied people, various characters who came together. But
they kind of established a sense of a shared ‘We’. Like at
the end I felt like ‘yeah, people come back even though
perhaps they are not successful growing anything, or they
had doubts about the project from the very beginning,
but they keep coming back and become part of a group.
Some collegiate experience happened there.
What do you think about this collegium, this camaraderie,
this companionship? Do you feel like something like that
was going on in the group?
NW Yeah, it was very interesting… I mean it’s a pretty
unique experience to go through, there’s not many peo-
ple anywhere who can say that they’ve spent five weeks
fermenting their own urine to grow plants. You know, we
had a very unique experience to share with one another
in terms of how we were doing with the growing, how we
were doing at home, how we were doing recordings of all
of this information. And then the impact it had on the way
we all went through about ourselves and the natural sys-
tems. So, I think that it was a unique experience shared by
a unique group of people in a place where you wouldn’t
expect it, if you know Hong Kong at all. So, all in all pretty
unique in many ways.
SW Yeah, there was definitely a lot a social bonding hap-
pening over the project and shared experience because,
as Neil just mentioned, it is something very unusual to do.
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85
I was surprised at how many people joined. In the begin-
ning I didn’t think that it was possible to do this (project)
in Hong Kong, I just could not imagine finding enough
people interested. But they were. And also, when I looked
at some of the people, if I had met them on the street I
would not have thought that they would be interested in
doing such a thing as this. So, for me it was an eye-opener,
and I thought that maybe Hong Kong people are more
open than I thought – you just need to provide the right
type of opportunity, and then people will come. And also,
I had the privilege of knowing Markus before and I new
some other participants as well. Benson and I are still in
touch now. We met through the project and we’re still in
touch. It’s very nice!
BL I would like to share a bit. I’ve mentioned that Hong
Kong young people like DIY work, customization work.
And through this project, I may say, we have put an equal
system inside ourselves. Like a rainforest inside ourselves.
For example, my wife likes to buy some small planting
system or some fish feeding system which is a tangible
thing outside your body. To cope with the Chinese culture,
we like to put many imaginative things inside ourselves.
Things like Qi (氣), and that kind of thing. To me this
project is quite suitable for have planting an ecosystem
inside yourself. And for the sharing aspect, we are not just
showing our own plants and comparing with each other,
we will share what we have input ingested and what we
have managed to eat and drink, etc. and compare it with
each other. It’s like gardening yourself, gardening your
mind, your behaviour. This is quite nice…
MW I remember in the first session we made some
sauerkraut together on one table. Everyone participated
in mushing the cabbage. That was a symbolic way of
initiating and sharing bacteria already…
RP Thank you all. Markus, would you like to ask anything
else?
MW Yes, what is the legacy of this project? What did we
learn? It’s been two years since, which is a great time span
to put things in perspective. Was it a blip and it’s all gone?
Evaporated into the air, or what do you take out of this?
Should we do it again? or not? what is resonating for you
in this now?
SW For me the main part was raising awareness of what I
put in, what comes out of my body. From that perspective
I would love to do the project again and I would love to
have more people joining and trying it out. There’s some
room for improvement when it comes to the technical
side, but this was a first trial and the first time is always the
hardest, where you learn and then can improve. But yeah,
for me I really was impressed by how many ‘ordinary Hong
Kong people’ joined, when I thought they would not be
interested. And I think it’s a very healthy thing for Hong
Kong, maybe not only Hong Kong, just people in general
to think about their environment, think about their own
bodies. So, from that perspective I would love to see more
of it.
NW For me the big takeaway was understanding my own
personal system better. That’s had a long-term influence,
like I’ve already said, on what I put on my body (I was
always quite careful about what I put in my body) but I
would spray myself with god knows what [laughs]. I’ve
changed my habits completely in terms of the types of
things I put on my body [now] which is the big take-away.
In terms of the growing side, I’d be really interested in
an experiment that looks at how to scale this. I know
that’s not really the direction the project was going — it
was much more about the social interactions, the social
experiment which I think was amazing. But from a prac-
tical level I’d be super-interested in working… it’s on the
back burner of my mind… about how to scale this and
make it productive. And then, is there a way that we can
potentially…I don’t know, country parks have a system
that could work for larger scale…so we can divert some of
this energy that we are wasting and just dumping into the
sea, back onto the land again?
BL Some participants, like Daniel, have put extra elements
into the fermented urine so that it has become a powerful
fertiliser for his garden. For me, I’ve tried to amplify what
we have done through the video, and kept sending it to
some laypersons. This is my role. Because it didn’t take part
in fermenting my urine…
MW Did you discover something new about Hong Kong
people?
BL Yes, besides producing something tangible for them
to take away, encouragement for them to come back.
The video has become a map for communicating with
the layperson, because often we feel like green ideas and
the scientific ideas are is too remote and too difficult to
understand. We did research on the video [storytelling] on
how to amplify the idea.
MW So we learned techniques to communicate the sto-
ry? So that others outside can partake, can participate?
BL Yes, yes. They can understand the whole idea within
20 minutes. There’s some interesting sharing by three
participants.
MW OK, that’s right…because it was an in-group project.
It was a closed group, adding an outlet, a window to the
world, I think that’s what you’re saying Benson.
BL It’s important, too, to give [the project] some sort of a
legacy.
MW Because in a way I know some participants were
disappointed, they were saying that they couldn’t tell any-
thing, even to their own family, because they didn’t suc-
ceed with productive outcomes. It was not really working
as a system. So therefore there’s not much to tell [anyone].
But then some of the sharing that we have today through
this book project and some of the video, we can give [the
project] a legacy, we share the current state of what we
felt about it.
RP What I’ve learnt today is that you can maybe have no
technical success, but nevertheless there are clear things
that people are taking away from the project. And how
to communicate that is quite an interesting question and
quite a difficult thing.
MW [interrupts] So what does everybody think? Was it
a waste of time? These five or six weeks that were quite
intense.
NW No. It was good. It was very helpful. It was probably
never really about growing the plants was it? It was a
great journey of self-discovery I think, on a personal level.
SW Yeah, I can second that. It was very personal in a
way, to communicate your personal story with others. I
understand that it might be difficult if you want to put
that inside a video or share that with the world – you have
to think of how do you present that. So there’s personal in-
formation, maybe it’s private or something that you don’t
want to share specific details. On an abstract level, what
do you communicate?
I would also say that it was time well spent. It was
thought-provoking and inspiring.
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85
I was surprised at how many people joined. In the begin-
ning I didn’t think that it was possible to do this (project)
in Hong Kong, I just could not imagine finding enough
people interested. But they were. And also, when I looked
at some of the people, if I had met them on the street I
would not have thought that they would be interested in
doing such a thing as this. So, for me it was an eye-opener,
and I thought that maybe Hong Kong people are more
open than I thought – you just need to provide the right
type of opportunity, and then people will come. And also,
I had the privilege of knowing Markus before and I new
some other participants as well. Benson and I are still in
touch now. We met through the project and we’re still in
touch. It’s very nice!
BL I would like to share a bit. I’ve mentioned that Hong
Kong young people like DIY work, customization work.
And through this project, I may say, we have put an equal
system inside ourselves. Like a rainforest inside ourselves.
For example, my wife likes to buy some small planting
system or some fish feeding system which is a tangible
thing outside your body. To cope with the Chinese culture,
we like to put many imaginative things inside ourselves.
Things like Qi (氣), and that kind of thing. To me this
project is quite suitable for have planting an ecosystem
inside yourself. And for the sharing aspect, we are not just
showing our own plants and comparing with each other,
we will share what we have input ingested and what we
have managed to eat and drink, etc. and compare it with
each other. It’s like gardening yourself, gardening your
mind, your behaviour. This is quite nice…
MW I remember in the first session we made some
sauerkraut together on one table. Everyone participated
in mushing the cabbage. That was a symbolic way of
initiating and sharing bacteria already…
RP Thank you all. Markus, would you like to ask anything
else?
MW Yes, what is the legacy of this project? What did we
learn? It’s been two years since, which is a great time span
to put things in perspective. Was it a blip and it’s all gone?
Evaporated into the air, or what do you take out of this?
Should we do it again? or not? what is resonating for you
in this now?
SW For me the main part was raising awareness of what I
put in, what comes out of my body. From that perspective
I would love to do the project again and I would love to
have more people joining and trying it out. There’s some
room for improvement when it comes to the technical
side, but this was a first trial and the first time is always the
hardest, where you learn and then can improve. But yeah,
for me I really was impressed by how many ‘ordinary Hong
Kong people’ joined, when I thought they would not be
interested. And I think it’s a very healthy thing for Hong
Kong, maybe not only Hong Kong, just people in general
to think about their environment, think about their own
bodies. So, from that perspective I would love to see more
of it.
NW For me the big takeaway was understanding my own
personal system better. That’s had a long-term influence,
like I’ve already said, on what I put on my body (I was
always quite careful about what I put in my body) but I
would spray myself with god knows what [laughs]. I’ve
changed my habits completely in terms of the types of
things I put on my body [now] which is the big take-away.
In terms of the growing side, I’d be really interested in
an experiment that looks at how to scale this. I know
that’s not really the direction the project was going — it
was much more about the social interactions, the social
experiment which I think was amazing. But from a prac-
tical level I’d be super-interested in working… it’s on the
back burner of my mind… about how to scale this and
make it productive. And then, is there a way that we can
potentially…I don’t know, country parks have a system
that could work for larger scale…so we can divert some of
this energy that we are wasting and just dumping into the
sea, back onto the land again?
BL Some participants, like Daniel, have put extra elements
into the fermented urine so that it has become a powerful
fertiliser for his garden. For me, I’ve tried to amplify what
we have done through the video, and kept sending it to
some laypersons. This is my role. Because it didn’t take part
in fermenting my urine…
MW Did you discover something new about Hong Kong
people?
BL Yes, besides producing something tangible for them
to take away, encouragement for them to come back.
The video has become a map for communicating with
the layperson, because often we feel like green ideas and
the scientific ideas are is too remote and too difficult to
understand. We did research on the video [storytelling] on
how to amplify the idea.
MW So we learned techniques to communicate the sto-
ry? So that others outside can partake, can participate?
BL Yes, yes. They can understand the whole idea within
20 minutes. There’s some interesting sharing by three
participants.
MW OK, that’s right…because it was an in-group project.
It was a closed group, adding an outlet, a window to the
world, I think that’s what you’re saying Benson.
BL It’s important, too, to give [the project] some sort of a
legacy.
MW Because in a way I know some participants were
disappointed, they were saying that they couldn’t tell any-
thing, even to their own family, because they didn’t suc-
ceed with productive outcomes. It was not really working
as a system. So therefore there’s not much to tell [anyone].
But then some of the sharing that we have today through
this book project and some of the video, we can give [the
project] a legacy, we share the current state of what we
felt about it.
RP What I’ve learnt today is that you can maybe have no
technical success, but nevertheless there are clear things
that people are taking away from the project. And how
to communicate that is quite an interesting question and
quite a difficult thing.
MW [interrupts] So what does everybody think? Was it
a waste of time? These five or six weeks that were quite
intense.
NW No. It was good. It was very helpful. It was probably
never really about growing the plants was it? It was a
great journey of self-discovery I think, on a personal level.
SW Yeah, I can second that. It was very personal in a
way, to communicate your personal story with others. I
understand that it might be difficult if you want to put
that inside a video or share that with the world – you have
to think of how do you present that. So there’s personal in-
formation, maybe it’s private or something that you don’t
want to share specific details. On an abstract level, what
do you communicate?
I would also say that it was time well spent. It was
thought-provoking and inspiring.
MW Thank you so much everyone.
RP And thank you from me as well.
Notes
1 For the latter half of 2019, and continuing as this book goes to press,
pro-democracy protests rocked Hong Kong. Protest began in June
against plans to allow extradition to mainland China. Protestors feared
this could undermine judicial independence and endanger dissidents.
Clashes between police and activists became increasingly violent, with
police firing live bullets and protesters attacking officers and throwing
petrol bombs.
Mitigating action by Chinese authorities have thus far failed to quell the
riots.
2 2019 was also a politically charged year for the UK as well, with the
Brexit debate continuing to be the centre of political and domestic
attention. Two governments fell during the year, and many legal and
precedural precedents were shattered.
photo: Sarah Daher
MW Thank you so much everyone.
RP And thank you from me as well.
Notes
1 For the latter half of 2019, and continuing as this book goes to press,
pro-democracy protests rocked Hong Kong. Protest began in June
against plans to allow extradition to mainland China. Protestors feared
this could undermine judicial independence and endanger dissidents.
Clashes between police and activists became increasingly violent, with
police firing live bullets and protesters attacking officers and throwing
petrol bombs.
Mitigating action by Chinese authorities have thus far failed to quell the
riots.
2 2019 was also a politically charged year for the UK as well, with the
Brexit debate continuing to be the centre of political and domestic
attention. Two governments fell during the year, and many legal and
precedural precedents were shattered.
photo: Sarah Daher