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Reilly, K. P., and K. M. Gulliver. 1992. Interstate authorization of dis-
tance higher education via telecommunications: The developing
national consensus in policy and practice. The American Journal of
Distance Education 6(2):3-16.
International Computer
Conferencing for Professional
Development: The Bangkok Project
Michael G. Moore Terry Anderson and Robin Mason
Abstract
The Bangkok Project, which recently linked educational computer net-
works world wide, was a successful application of the new international
electronic mail and computer conferencing networks to support profession-
al development and reflection by members of the distance education
community. This article discusses the Project's rationale and operational
details. The authors conclude that this medium offers an exceptionally cost-
and learning-effective means of providing inservice support to distance
educators on a global scale.
Cervero (1990) has argued that the "reflective practitioner" does not
need pre-formatted content materials as much as an opportunity to share
and develop professional reflection within a community of peers. This
sharing of experience and expertise is especially important for distance
educators given the rapid expansion of distance education and the impact
of information technologies on the production, organization, and deliv-
ery of distance education programming.
Professionals within the distance education community are few in
number and spread across the globe. In order to meet the information-
sharing, networking, and knowledge-dissemination needs of its
members, the International Council for Distance Education (ICDE)
sponsors a face-to-face conference approximately every three years. At
these gatherings members of the community carry on formal and infor-
mal discussions and develop personal networks. Unfortunately, like all
face-to-face encounters, this conference is restricted to those who can
travel to a particular site at a particular time. Could the electronic net-
works be used as a vehicle for a complementary conference that would
span barriers of time and distance, be affordable, and yet still provide the
intellectual and social stimulation to develop and educate our communi-
ty of distance education professionals? This was the question answered
by the Bangkok Project.
45I
Organizing the Project network users. Porters then remailed or posted the messages to their own
networks. Porters were also responsible for monitoring their networks
for responses that could be "ported" back to the main Calgary mail list
for distribution across the full Bangkok Project. Again, porters were
empowered to select only those messages that they believed were of
interest and relevance to the many thousands of readers on the full pro-
ject network.
The contribution of these human "filters" ensured that the widely dis-
tributed interactions were legible, relevant, and reflective of a minimal
level of network etiquette. Some porters developed sophisticated relays
to automate this process. The results were very encouraging; unlike
many widely distributed network mail discussions, the Bangkok Project
was characterized by an almost complete absence of irrelevant or mis-
mailed items.
Linkage to the Face-to-Face Conference. The ICDE conference
serves as a focal point for interaction within the distance education com-
munity. The Bangkok Project was designed to build upon and enhance
the face-to-face interaction at the 1992 Conference through integration
with the meeting in Bangkok; topic areas were chosen to complement
themes of this face-to-face conference. The Bangkok Project began four
weeks before the XVI World Conference and ended two weeks after its
completion. The electronic conference was designed to provide an intro-
duction to issues that could be further explored in the face-to-face
sessions and as a forum for reflection and comment once face-to-face
delegates returned home. The Bangkok Project also attempted to share
the excitement and the social and intellectual stimulation of the World
Conference with the vast majority of distance educators who could not
afford the time or expense of traveling to Bangkok.
The Project worked to establish a site in Bangkok so that delegates
could experience this type of interactive, electronic communication;
could review items and interactions during the weeks preceding the con-
ference; and could interact with the larger community of electronic
participants during the conference. Unfortunately, the computer confer-
ence site in Bangkok was never established due to logistical and
communications problems. Despite the offer from Softwords Research
International of a CoSy computer conference system and the offer by
IBM Thailand of micro computers to be used as terminals in Bangkok,
the conference organizers were not able to provide the necessary net-
work connection, space, or human resources needed to support the site.
Ironically, less then seven days after the decision by the conference
The Bangkok Project was an experimental project designed to link
distance educators using all of the world's electronic networks. The
Project developed and tested five prototype features: 1) support of at
least two levels of interaction-local, community-specific interaction
and general, network-wide interaction; 2) the use of "porters" to manage
the interactions; 3) linkage to the face-to-face international conference;
4) a seminar format with separate session topics, each with a "host" and
a "first speaker"; and 5) the use of the networks exclusively for organi-
zation and promotion.
Spanning the Networks. The Bangkok Project used the distribution
function of the Internet, a collection of over 1,3 I 3,000 networked com-
puters in fifty-five countries around the globe (Network Information
Systems Centre 1993). Despite the immense size of Internet and its rapid
growth rate (nearly 2000 host computers added daily), there are many
hundreds of additional networks and stand-alone systems that are not
directly connected to the Internet, but that have capacity for linkage
through various Gateways (e.g., Bitnet, Fido Net, KI2 Net). Global con-
nectivity across these networks is hampered because many users are
restricted in their technical capacity or knowledge of networking to the
particular mail or conferencing system to which they normally subscribe.
To alleviate this problem the Bangkok Project attempted to provide
access to all members of the international community without requiring
them to leave their familiar local computer system or to obtain additional
passwords or access to new computer systems. We wanted the process of
bringing the Bangkok Conference to the user to be as transparent as
possible.
In order to accomplish this linking of networks, a central mail distri-
bution list was established at the University of Calgary in Canada. All
conference messages were posted to this central list, from which they
were fed to approximately twenty-five different networks or mail discus-
sion lists for further distribution (see Appendix C for a list of
participating networks and lists).
Managing the Interaction. The recipients of the main conference post-
ings were volunteer "porters," the "unsung heros of the network nation"
(Netweaver 1991). The porters' task was to copy electronic messages
from one system to another in order to expand the number of recipients.
They were given the power to edit messages to ensure that interaction
that was "ported" across was relevant and of potential use to their
67
organizers to cancel on-site support, the first Thailand connection to the
Internet was announced. This site could have provided the necessary
electronic connectivity to support the project.
Because of this logistical failure, the capacity to integrate face-to-face
and computer conferencing was not tested in this project. The develop-
ment of "real time" interaction capacity on the international networks
opens the possibility for synchronous as well as asynchronous communi-
cations between delegates attending conferences face-to-face and those
in different areas of the globe. Technologically supported communica-
tion may never completely replace face-to-face contacts for either formal
education or professional development. However, our experiences as
distance educators have shown that meaningful interaction and learning
can and does occur outside of the confines of time and space.
Conference Format
single college or university. On the smaller systems, interactions could
stimulate local reactions or special group communication parallel to
interactions with the larger discussion topic. This dual level of interac-
tion allowed those interested in a particular item of discussion or from a
particular geographical area to carryon a side conversation of specific
interest to these members. In face-to-face format, of course, such side
conversations would be disruptive and generally perceived as reflecting
very poor form. The porters were able to filter these secondary conversa-
tions and carry back to the main discussion any conclusions, insights, or
questions from the first speaker or other participants. Although this sec-
ond-level discussion was supported during the Bangkok Project, many
networks reported few interactions at this level. Perhaps a prohibition
against such side conversations might have been inferred from the semi-
nar metaphor, thus inhibiting such interchanges.
The Networks as Orf?anizational Tools. The Bangkok Project was
organized exclusively through interaction on the various electronic net-
works. An organizational conference was established early in the project
at the University of Calgary. The authors of this article served as
Network Coordinator and First Speaker Coordinator, respectively. The
organizational group consisted of these two coordinators, approximately
thirty-five porters, and another group of twenty interested supporters. All
promotion, recruitment of facilitators, and conference administration
was done on the networks. The project concluded with a two-week eval-
uation conference in which organizers shared their suggestions for
improving future conferences.
The direct costs to the participants and to the organizers of the
Bangkok Project were extremely low, even taking into account the hid-
den and infrastructure costs of using the international networks and the
contributions in time and personal energy provided by the many volun-
teers and their respective employers. The Bangkok Project received no
funding from any sources and charged no fees to participants, yet the
out-of-pocket expenses to the organizers were less than $100.00! This
cost compares favorably to the thousands of dollars that participation in
international face-to-face conferences costs each participant.
A final benefit of using electronic conferencing for administration of
this type of project is the resulting electronic record or log of all interac-
tions between the organizers. This record provides an invaluable archive
that can guide future network organizers and researchers. The transcripts
of the organizational conference as well as the transcripts of all six
\~
Sorensen (1992) points out the necessity to use concepts and termi-
nology from familiar domains as metaphors to understand and use new
communications systems. The Bangkok Project used the metaphor of the
small group presentation common in face-to-face conferences. The pro-
ject was divided into six separate topics. Each topic was discussed for
approximately two weeks, and two topics were presented simultaneous-
ly. One topic extended throughout the seven weeks of the project to test
the value of longer-running conferences.
A volunteer host was assigned to each topic. The host introduced the
first speaker, provided occasional summary comments, and helped stim-
ulate or restrain the interaction as necessary.
Six internationally known experts in distance education were invited
to serve as first speakers (see Appendix A for first speaker names and
for titles of the six topics). The procedural guidelines provided to the
first speakers were purposely vague to allow development of particular
styles of interaction within each topic. Each first speaker submitted
opening remarks consisting of three to five screens of text that described
emerging issues and ideas relevant to the session topic. One first speaker
also submitted a longer, journal-type article to stimulate discussion.
Support for Multi-Level Interaction. The twenty-five participating
networks or distribution lists (see Appendix C) had markedly different
interests and geographic mandates. Some (e.g., Usenet-Alt.
Education.Bangkok.) were distributed to approximately 50,000 comput-
er systems around the globe, others to stand-alone systems within a
89
I would like to respond to Kathy Kothman's post about portering on
TENET, the relatively new state-wide network for public school edu-
cators and students in Texas. I was one of the lurkers through most of
the conference. Kathy did a wonderful job of moving the material
onto a newsgroup on TENET ! was more than just a little excited to
find the conference. Michael Moore's wonderful first speaker discus-
sion was stunning. And I was hooked. I lurked because I didn't have
the knowledge base, and I was completely ignorant of CMC as prac-
ticed ! believe that this has been as stimulating and engrossing as
my first long foray into a University library. (D. Perkins, Organization
of the Bangkok Project Conference)
Another participant reported that she took printouts of the strategic
planning conference to a management meeting at her institution because
the issues addressed were relevant to the discussion there. Excerpts from
several messages were read out by one participant giving a keynote
address at a conference in the United Kingdom. Several courses on dis-
tance education and electronic communications used the conferences as
part of the course material and, in some cases, students contributed
queries and points of view. It is impossible to quantify or measure the
level of extended conference participation. However, these examples
suggest that the interactions on line are but the tip of an iceberg: many
additional levels can be found below the surface.
Curiously, the overall rate of messages to the Bangkok Project reflect-
ed the optimum comfort level: approximately three or four per day. This
rate seems to be a comfortable one for most people in coping with the
physical messages, engaging intellectually with the material, and feeling
that they are not being psychologically overwhelmed. A technical prob-
lem that sent hundreds of repeated messages all around the system
occurred at the end of the first week. Fortunately, these error messages
were delivered only to the porters, who were able to filter them out
before they were distributed to end users. This potentially catastrophic
error showed by contrast how appropriate the sustained level of messag-
ing was to all concerned. The unpredictability of messaging created a
certain amount of anticipation beforehand: "Well, here we go. I feel like
someone standing on the top of a mountain and shouting, without know-
ing if anyone is listening!" (Tony Bates, Strategic Planning in Distance
Education Conference). Another first speaker said he was preparing him-
self for anything between zero and one thousand messages. In actuality
he received fifty messages over a two week period, probably a comfort-
able level of activity. Perhaps conferencing is, to some extent, a
self-regulating mechanism in which people collectively match the contri-
butions to the tolerance level.
For many contributors, the conference messages appeared as personal
mail-they did not log on to a host system or a local confereneing sub-
system to read the discussions in a conference. Few inputs were received
from those who did access the discussions from conferencing systems
such as UseNet Newsgroups and Fido Net Echos. Mail messages are
undoubtedly more attention-demanding than conferences that the user
has to make a special effort to access each time.
topics are available free of charge through file transfer programs avail-
able on the Internet (see Appendix B).
Content of the Bangkok Project Conferences
The technical success of this experiment, given its complexity and
innovative nature, is ample justification for issuing a report on which
others can build in subsequent applications. However, a network is only
as good as the content that it carries. What was the value of the Bangkok
discussions? This analysis will discuss the nature and quality of the
interactions in the conferences and conclude with lessons learned from
the entire experiment.
Use of'the Conf'crences. There was considerable variation in the
development of the six conferences. These differences were partially due
to the order in which they occurred; for example, the last conference suf-
fered from a lack of impetus both because it was last and because it
came after a break during the actual meeting in Bangkok. However,
other conferences suffered similar problems, the reasons for which are
not as obvious.
Appendix B lists the number of messages for all conferences: 242
(not counting those used for conference organization) over a seven-week
period. However, the quantity of messages in no way reflects the number
of people who read and were stimulated by the discussions. This diffi-
culty in estimating extended use is always a problem with computer
conferences, but especially with the Bangkok Project, for which the
potential audience was vast. Examples of the extended use of the discus-
sions were provided by feedback messages such as the following:
10 11
Contributors to the Conference little time for reflection. Often readers were presented with comments,
questions, and rebuttals seconds after reading the original posting.
Although highly stimulating, this rapid information flow can induce a
"read on" as opposed to "think on" mode of reception, which can be
inhibiting to those who prefer reflective learning situations. The relation-
ship between these hypothesized factors and participation in global
electronic discussions warrants a great deal of further investigation.
Although about ten participants contributed messages to several con-
ferences, most people contributed only one or two messages to one
particular discussion. The actual number of contributors to the six con-
ferences is also somewhat difficult to determine. Many messages were
not signed, some participants used someone else's ID to send their mes-
sages, some headers did not contain names, and some messages were
signed by several people. Nevertheless, it is apparent that messages
came from various participants in at least twenty states of the United
States, from five different sites in Canada, from several parts of
Australia and the United Kingdom, and from New Zealand, Norway, and
Venezuela. Although the distribution was global, the active participation
should perhaps be described as international, since there rarely was par-
ticipation by those in Third World countries.
A number of reasons could be hypothesized for the lack of participa-
tion from Third World distance educators. First, potential participants in
Third World countries are more likely to have limited access to local
hardware and international connectivity. Educational programming, at
all levels and using all delivery modes, is done under severe economic
constraints, and professional development activities and equipment for
staff are but two of many competing needs. Second, although the
Internet is a global network, the majority of host sites (71 %) are located
in the United States. This imbalance is likely to continue for some time,
in spite of the fact that percentage growth rates of Internet sites are high-
er in other countries than in the United States (Network Information
Systems Centre 1993). Third, the use of a single language for interaction
presents problems for those not comfortable with that language; they
may be reluctant to expose themselves, through their writing, to a large,
international audience. The use of porters as translators and editors could
alleviate this problem, but adds complexity and time delays to the inter-
action process.
Fourth, the seminar style of presentation, with world-renowned
experts as first speakers, probably inhibited novice users and inexperi-
enced distance educators. There may also be a cultural component to this
inhibition; some cultures discourage active questioning/debate and
emphasize respect and listening (as opposed to discussion) with teachers
and elders. Finally, participation in a fast-moving, technologically medi-
ated environment may be influenced by both cultural and individual
learning style factors. The two-week format of each discussion gave
Nature of the Interactions
Despite the number of "one-off' contributors (those who made only
one contribution), there was a remarkable degree of interaction in the
various conferences. Contributors responded to specific issues raised by
previous participants. After the initial introductory messages from the
first speakers to outline areas for discussion, there were no monologues
or long harangues by people promoting their personal viewpoints or
biases. The interactions were dialogues-sometimes between partici-
pants and the first speaker, sometimes between various participants.
Perhaps the most sustained and stimulating discussion centered on the
value of interaction in distance education. Various perspectives on this
issue were given by half-a-dozen participants, and the first speaker con-
tinued to refine and focus the inputs. In this and other discussions,
reference was made to the relevant literature, to experience and applica-
tions, and to particular research. These were academic debates, not
free-for-alls in which people made uncontrolled, personal comments.
Given the heterogeneous nature of the participants, this positive outcome
of the discussions-worthwhile, electronic dialogue on an international
scale-is remarkable.
One of the factors that undoubtedly contributed to the disciplined
nature of the interactions was the formal structure within which the con-
ferences were set. First speakers were introduced and time frames for
each discussion were given at the outset and adhered to, just as in a face-
to-face conference. Participants were reminded by the hosts of
conferencing etiquette: keeping messages short, relevant, and unambigu-
ous. The whole project was elegantly managed from Calgary with
informative and friendly messages that kept the whole experiment mov-
ing forward smoothly. Altogether, these measures created a strong sense
of a sociable, but structured, environment.
The goal of sustained, academic debate was not uniformly met. All of
the first speakers tried to cover too many issues, given the short time and
12 13 Ii
the tangential nature of computer conferencing. One or, at most, two
issues would have been appropriate for the time frame. Most discussions
were caught in side issues, although the lively debate in Moore's confer-
ence on distance education theory did focus well on the nature of
educational theory. The conference on databases never engaged in the
central issues put forth in the stimulating opening messages by the first
speaker. The conference on strategic planning got off to an excellent
start in the first week, but lost its focus in the second week when the first
speaker was interrupted by the technical problem referred to earlier and
could no longer access the conference. The research conference was a
microcosm of the whole: it comprised substantive discussion about dis-
tance education research, simultaneous comments about various side
issues, and some continuation of issues from the earlier two conferences.
The conference on the use of computer-mediated communications
(CMC) in developing countries, which ran the length of the whole pro-
ject, provides a useful contrast to the two-week conferences. The
original aim was to exploit the global nature of the experiment by
encouraging participants to list all known applications of CMC in devel-
oping countries. This exercise proved to be a total failure, yet, over the
seven-week period, the participants eventually discovered what they did
want to discuss: impediments to the use of computer conferencing in all
parts of the world. Some interactive discussion finally occurred toward
the end of the period. This conference would not have worked in a two-
week timespan, yet it was more dispersed and unfocused than were the
two-week conferences.
How to focus discussions is an important issue. Opening messages
with many wonderfully stimulating questions seemed to overwhelm con-
tributors and produce discussions on side issues. However, as these six
examples show, it would be difficult to draw definitive rules about what
works and what does not, except with hindsight. In the context of this
experiment, three weeks per discussion might have worked better; each
conference needed some "start-up" time and there were varying delays
in relaying messages between the originators' home systems, the
Calgary distribution link, and other sites or networks. However, the
seven-weeks time frame could not have been extended without consider-
able loss of momentum.
Conclusions
We have learned a number of lessons from this project, and yet are
left with a number of unanswered questions. We can see that projects of
this sort need an effective conference structure; a tight focus to each dis-
cussion; human, rather than automated, filters; and a dynamic and
committed group to promote and manage it.
Questions still needing answers include
Should subsequent projects use the same networking procedures?
Should online discussions be based on the face-to-face conference?
Should several parallel discussions run concurrently?
How can online discussion be promoted more widely to encourage
increased participation?
The project showed that electronic networking can provide cost-effec-
tive, yet meaningful, interactions among distance education
professionals. The list of participants showed that current access to or
awareness of the technology is generally limited to distance educators in
the more technologically developed countries. The growth of electronic
communications in all countries will continue to expand accessibility
and the potential for truly global networking. The Bangkok Project
experimented with structures and organizational systems that used the
power of new technologies as well as the expertise of the professional
distance education community. Some aspects of this technology and its
application can and will be improved in subsequent projects. Distance
educators have an obligation to be in the forefront of the development of
this technology. As proponents for increased educational access and
quality, we cannot afford to ignore the application of these powerful new
global communications technologies to both our needs as reflective prac-
titioners and to the needs of learners in general.
The field of distance education is developing in many diverse direc-
tions. The application of interactive communications technologies can
significantly increase the quantity and quality of debate, information
exchange, and personal networking that distinguishes our professional
organizations. The Bangkok Project, which has demonstrated that the
tools for cost-effective, professional development programming already
exist, presents a dual challenge: first, development of programming that
meets the needs of our distance education community, and second, tech-
nological development that ensures that all members of our global
community have access to this medium.
14 15
Topic Name Items Length (Bytes) File Name
Introduction and Overview 4 21273 introduction
Computer Mediated
Communications 61 107387 cmc.trans
Database Use in
Distance Education 26 41979 database. trans
Strategic Planning in
Distance Education 41 85621 planning. trans
Research Issues 50 99221 research. trans
Student Support 10 31134 support. trans
Theory and Philosophy 50 224176 theory. trans
Organization of the
Bangkok Project 121 265904 organization. trans
References Appendix B. Transcript Files Documenting the Bangkok Project
Cervero, R. 1990. A model of professionals as learners. In Visions for
the Future of Continuing Professional Education, eds. R. Cervero and
J. Azzaretto, 161-82. Athens, GA: University of Georgia.
Carlson, L. 1991. Netweaver. (Newsletter of the Electronic Networking
Association. )
Network Information Systems Centre. 1993. SRI International Internet
Domain Survey. January.
Sorensen, E. K. 1992. Metaphors and the design of human interface. In
Collaborative Learning Through Computer Conferencing, ed. A.
Kaye, 189-200. Berlin: Springer-Verlag.
1. Applications of Electronic Communication for Distance Education
in the Third World
Dr. Robin Mason, Lecturer, Open University of the United
Kingdom
Appendix A. Discussion Topics and First Speakers
3. Strategic Planning and Policy for Distance Education
Dr. Tony Bates, Director of Research, Open Learning Agency of
British Columbia
These files are available for anonymous ftp from the ftp site at the
University of Calgary.
Site Name: FTP.ACS.UCALGARY.CA Directory:
jpubjprivate ~roup _info/icdej
To access: ftp to the above site; log in as "anonymous"; use your
EMAIL address as the password; cd to the above directory and get the
file(s) of interest. For more detailed FTP instructions consult any intro-
ductory text covering Internet services.
2. Emerging Theories and Philosophy of Distance Education
Dr. Michael G. Moore, Director, The American Center for the
Study of Distance Education
Appendix C. Participating Networks and Lists
6. Distance Education and Student Support
Dr. David Sew art, President, International Council for Distance
Education
AEDNET
AGSAT
Capital Area Researchers in EdTech
Distance Education Online Symposium
EduTel
FidoNet Echos EDUCATOR, High_ED
GLOSAS-L
IUNK
Interpersonal Computer and Technology List
Kl2 Net, UseNet K12
KIDSNET, COSNDISC
4. Emerging Issues in Distance Education Research
Dr. Gene Rubin, Editor, Research in Distance Education,
Athabasca University
5. Databases and Documentation for Distance Education
Mr. Laury Melton, International Centre for Distance Learning
16 17
Lancaster University, NIX
NISS Bulletin Board
Nursing-I, ETNet. Newedu-l
NYSERnet
Open University of UK
ShareNet
Sigtel-l
TENET
Unibase Educators Network
University of Alberta
University of Calgary
U senet - Alt.Education.Bangkok
Venezuelan Academic Network
VETMED, VETLIB
Acknowledgements
The authors would like to thank the porters, hosts, and first speakers, and the comput-
er services staff at many sites, especially the University of Calgary site. Without the
considerable efforts of these volunteers this project would not have succeeded. The
authors also would like to acknowledge the valuable contributions of Ken Borland, past
editor of DEOSNEWS and DEOS-L and currently Assistant Professor of Adult and
Continuing Education at Dallas Baptist University, to our discussion of barriers to partic-
ipation by Third World distance educators.
18
Attitudes of Higher Education
Faculty Toward Distance Education:
A National Survey
Tom Clark
Abstract
Although distance education is growing in importance in the United States,
little research has focused on the attitudes of American college and univer-
sity teachers toward college-level distance education and toward the use of
specific media in distance education provision. The attitudes of both partic-
ipating and nonparticipating faculty toward distance education need further
examination, since teaching innovations cannot succeed without their sup-
port. This study examines the receptivity to college-credit distance
education of faculty members in two- and four-year higher education insti-
tutions. The research questions focused on general receptivity to distance
education, the relationship between professional characteristics and attitude
toward distance education, the connection between previous distance edu-
cation experiences/ familiarity and receptivity, and on attitudes toward
different distance education media and methods.
Introduction
Recent evaluation studies of distance education projects and activities
have included surveys of the attitudes of participating faculty (cf.
Burnham 1988; Dillon 1989; Spondor 1990). Studies of the attitudes of
f~culty toward distance education include a national survey of graduate
lIbrary and information science faculty (Barron 1991), a comparative
study of faculty attitudes toward distance instruction in land grant uni-
versities (Bankirer 1987), a study of faculty attitudes toward
satellite-based instruction at member institutions of the League for
Innovation in Community Colleges (Bunting 1989), and a comparative
study of attitudes toward distance education held by instructors with pre-
vious distance education experience and instructors with no previous
experience (Stinehart 1987).
Like earlier studies of nontraditional and external degree programs
that reported either negative attitudes on the part of nonparticipating fac-
ulty (Stetson 1979; Patton 1975; Medsker and Associates 1975), or more
L
19
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