Service de Recherche Pédagogique SRP Inc
Discussion
Started 3 June 2024
Which is more exact, quantum mechanics or relativity?
Quantum mechanics because the statistics. Relativity is more theoretical.
Most recent answer
Actually, both are self-consistent, but inexact in the same manner, because both were established without taking into account the electromagnetic properties of the electron that were observed from the data collected by Walter Kaufmann during his experiments of the early years of the 1900's:
Explained with full historical references in this final paper of the electromagnetic mechanic project:
All replies (11)
Quantum mechanics predicts Hawking radiation. Einstein's relativity doesn't.
Einstein identified that there was a second conceivable route to relativity theory, that involved full light-dragging (Hertz). Interestingly, Hertzian relativity does seem to predict Hawking radiation, as its redder Newtonian equations generate softer "relative" horizons rather than the "hard", "absolute" event horizons of Schwarzschild and Wheeler.
Preprint Two Routes to General Relativity
So maybe Einstein's is simply the wrong theory of relativity.
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University of Tours
Both, in the sense that global Lorentz invariance-in the absence of gravity-and local Lorentz invariance-in the presence of gravity-are exact symmetries and quantum mechanics, in the sense that the probability distribution of a system, subject to quantum fluctuations, can be obtained in a well-defined way, once the space of states has been identified.
Quantum mechanics doesn't predict Hawking radiation-because the space of states of a gravitational system, in general, isn't known, due to the appearance of spacetime singularities, which the semi-classical approximation, that implies Hawking radiation, doesn't resolve. What exactly is Hwking radiation, beyond the semi-classical approximation, remains to be understood. A more robust prediction of quantum mechanics, in the presence of gravity, is that black holes, when probed by quantum matter, have finite entropy (the Bekenstein-Hawking entropy), for which the degrees of freedom that can account for it have been identified, in certain cases, where the space of states can be found, cf.
There are many issues, nonetheless, that remain to be understood, pertaining to quantum gravity.
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formerly conicet and universidad nacional del litoral
If its about GR, then i understand QM much better.
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Integrated Detector Systems
There is a tradeoff. If 95% of all the energy in the universe is due to stochastic fluctuations of spacetime, caused by "a fundamental breakdown in predictability", then gravity is classical general relativity, quantum gravity does not exist, dark matter effects are entropic, and emergent classical gravity is asymptotically free because stochastic white noise vanishes at short distances.
Jonathan Oppenheim and Andrea Russo, “Anomalous contribution to galactic rotation curves due to stochastic spacetime” 1 May 2024, https://arxiv.org/abs/2402.19459v2
Einstein's special relativity is a cornerstone for quantum mechanics to be an exact and successful physical theory,and without it,quantum mechanics becomes non-relativistic and fails to explain a lot of major real aspects such as spin ,pair production,high energy physics, and even the spectrum of the hydrogen's atom, and the list goes on. Following Günther, there is no way to prove that special relativity is wrong,and thus quantum mechanics without Einstein's relativity is a failure.
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Service de Recherche Pédagogique SRP Inc
Both are inexact.
Special Relativity theory because the community chose to ignore the experimentally confirmed electromagnetic behavior of electrons as measured with the Kaufmann experiments and confirmed by all leading physicist of the time:
"Herr Kaufmann has determined the relation between [electric and magnetic deflection] of 𝛽-rays with admirable care. ... Using an independent method, Herr Planck obtained results which fully agree with Kaufmann. ... It is further to be noted that the theories of Abraham and Bucherer yield curves which fit the observed curve considerably better than the curve obtained from relativity theory. However, in my opinion, these theories should be ascribed a rather small probability because their basic postulates concerning the mass of the moving electron are not made plausible by theoretical systems which encompass wider complexes and phenomena."Albert Einstein (1907)
"Special Relativity killed the classical dream of using the energy-momentum-velocity relations of a particle as a means of probing the dynamic origin of its mass. The relations are purely kinematic. The classical picture of a particle as a finite little sphere is also gone for good. Quantum field theory has taught us that particles nevertheless have structure, arising from quantum fluctuations. Recently, unified field theories have taught us that the mass of the electron is certainly not purely electromagnetic in nature. But we still do not know what causes the electron to weigh." Abraham Pais (1982)
In Pais, Abraham (2008) Subtle is the Lord: The Science and the Life of Albert Einstein. Oxford University Press. 2008. p. 159.
Quantum mechanics because it was historically grounded on a wrong frequency of the energy induced at the Bohr radius of the hydrogen atom as calculated by de Broglie, due to the neglect by the community of referencing in textbooks the Kaufmann discovery made 20 years earlier:
Institute of Physics, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine
The thread question and the introduction in
“…Which is more exact, quantum mechanics or relativity?... Quantum mechanics because the statistics. Relativity is more theoretical…”.
- look as are rather vague wordings. The real criteria for a theory to be really scientific one are, first of all [more see SS post page 29 in https://www.researchgate.net/post/What-criteria-do-you-have-in-mind-while-characterizing-a-scientific-theory#view=66676972acb8f78a2601bd55/37/36/35/34/35/34/33/32/31/30/29], is – with what extent of adequacy to the objective reality the theory describes and predicts what exists and happens in studied objects/systems; physical theories describes and predicts what exists and happen in fundamental for humans system “Matter”. Including in Matter objectively everything exists and happens only completely “exactly” – with what precision a physical theory works.
That doesn’t depend on – theory describes some random or rigorously determined objects/events/effects/processes. Say, the mathematical probability theory is completely “exact” science, despite that it relates to some principally random things/ “statistics”.
The same is in QM. All what is necessary in this theory is to describe/predict maximally exactly the probabilistic dependences/equations and the parameters of the dependences, that describe behavior of QM objects, etc.; really till now – equations for Ψ-functions the objects, etc., of particles, atoms, etc., when they are free and when compose some coupled by some fundamental Nature forces systems.
So, since really adequate to the reality theories are, nonetheless, principally based on experimental data about key universal parameters, say, about strengths/charges of fundamental Forces , the precision – and sometimes adequacy, though, of a theory is principally limited by experimental errors of the parameter’s values.
That is another thing, that all theories are based also on postulates, that are interpretations of experimental data, and when some interpretations are wrong, the theories logically inevitably really are wrong as well.
Physics yet in last 1800s was developed up to level, when for further development it was necessary to define really scientifically what are really fundamental phenomena/notions, first of all in this case “Matter”, “Consciousness”, “Space”, “Time”, “Energy”, “Information”, which were, and are till now, in the mainstream philosophy and sciences, including physics, fundamentally completely transcendent/uncertain/irrational,
- including so really everything in Matter, i.e. “particles”, “fundamental Nature forces” – and so “fields”, etc., is/are fundamentally completely transcendent/uncertain/irrational as well.
That above in Matter so are introduced in physical theories as defined in their postulates, which so in most cases really are completely transcendent assertions, which have to the reality rather strange relation. In Relativity that are, say, postulates that there is no absolute Matter’s spacetime and that all inertial reference frames are absolutely equivalent; that so exist mystic “space contraction” and “time dilation”, both of which, and not only in Relativity though, really fundamentally cannot exist; in QFTs some mystic virtual particles by some mystic way quite non-virtually act on real particles, etc. In Relativity there is no antiparticles – which really exist, in QETs it is postulated that antiparticles move back in time, what is fundamentally impossible. Etc., in the mainstream physics there are numerous other examples when really complete mystic is claimed as something scientific – and even postulated fundamental - facts.
The post is rather long, so now
Cheers
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Independent scientist
Starting by the absurd postulates, the relativity terminates by more absurd conclusions. On the other hand, quantum mechanics is a collection of the absurd postulates, not related to, or even contradictory to each other.
formerly conicet and universidad nacional del litoral
Issam
I would not say it that way.
Most situations of interest have it that speed is way less than c.
Dirac theory has its further predictions,
but also further paradoxes/problems.
formerly conicet and universidad nacional del litoral
The only way to see QM correct or not is predictive in experiments.
I think you cannot cite supposed historical mistakes stemming from early history as relevant today.
Service de Recherche Pédagogique SRP Inc
Actually, both are self-consistent, but inexact in the same manner, because both were established without taking into account the electromagnetic properties of the electron that were observed from the data collected by Walter Kaufmann during his experiments of the early years of the 1900's:
Explained with full historical references in this final paper of the electromagnetic mechanic project:
Similar questions and discussions
【NO.39】Doubts about General Relativity (4) - Who should determine the spacetime metrics of matter itself?
- Chian Fan
General Relativity field equations [1]:
Gµν = G*Tµν...... (EQ.1).
It is a relation between the matter field (energy-momentum field) Tµν and the spacetime field Gµν, where the gravitational constant G is the conversion factor between the dimensions [2].Einstein constructed this relation without explaining why the spacetime field and the matter field are in such a way, but rather assumed that nine times out of ten, they would be in such a way. He also did not explain why the spacetime field Gµν is described by curvature and not by some other parameter. Obviously, we must find the exact physical relationship between them, i.e., why Tµν must correspond to Gµν, in order to ensure that the field equations are ultimately correct.
We know that matter cannot be a point particle, it must have a scale, and matter cannot be a solid particle, it must be some kind of field. The fact that matter has a scale means that it has to occupy space-time; the fact that matter is a field means that it is mixed with space-time, i.e., matter contains space-time. So, when applying Einstein's field equations, how is matter's own spacetime defined? Does it change its own spacetime? If its own energy-momentum and structure have already determined its own spacetime, should the way it determines its own spacetime be the same as the way it determines the external spacetime? If it is the same, does it mean that the spacetime field is actually a concomitant of the matter field?
If one were to consider a gravitational wave, one could think of it as a fluctuating spacetime field that propagates independently of the material source after it has been disconnected from it. They have decoupled from each other and no longer continue to conform to the field equations (EQ.1). Although gravitational waves are the product of a source, the loss of that source prevents us from finding another specific source for it to match it through the equation (EQ.1). Just as after an electron accelerates, the relationship between the radiated electromagnetic wave and the electron is no longer maintained. Does this indicate the independence of spacetime field energies?
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Related questions
♛ “Does the Energy Tensor Tµν in the Field Equations Contain the Energy-momentum of the Spacetime Field?”:https://www.researchgate.net/post/NO37Doubts_about_General_Relativity_2-Does_the_Energy_Tensor_Tmn_in_the_Field_Equations_Contain_the_Energy-momentum_of_the_Spacetime_Field
♛ “Is the Geometry Interpretation of Gravity a Paradox?”:https://www.researchgate.net/post/NO36_Doubts_about_General_Relativity_1-Is_the_Geometry_Interpretation_of_Gravity_a_Paradox
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References
[1] Grøn, Ø., & Hervik, S. (2007). Einstein's Field Equations. In Einstein's General Theory of Relativity: With Modern Applications in Cosmology (pp. 179-194). Springer New York. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-0-387-69200-5_8
[2] “The Relationship Between the Theory of Everything and the Constants of Nature”:https://www.researchgate.net/publication/377566579_The_Relationship_Between_the_Theory_of_Everything_and_the_Constants_of_Nature_English_Version
Which is the most convincing physical experiment (Not Thought Experiment) that conclusively validates Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity ?
- Gurcharn Singh Sandhu
I understand that Michelson-Morley Experiment (MMX) and all its variants are regarded as the main physical experiments that support Special Theory of Relativity. However, I have shown a conceptual mistake in the design of MMX .
Fundamental Invalidity of all Michelson-Morley Type Experiments. Applied Physics Research; Vol. 8, No. 3; 2016 https://tinyurl.com/h996hq9
Relativity: a pillar of modern physics or a stumbling block. Proc. of SPIE Vol. 8121, 812109 (2011). https://tinyurl.com/ybez4v2h
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