Discussion
Started 3 June 2024

Which is more exact, quantum mechanics or relativity?

Quantum mechanics because the statistics. Relativity is more theoretical.

Most recent answer

André Michaud
Service de Recherche Pédagogique SRP Inc
Actually, both are self-consistent, but inexact in the same manner, because both were established without taking into account the electromagnetic properties of the electron that were observed from the data collected by Walter Kaufmann during his experiments of the early years of the 1900's:
Explained with full historical references in this final paper of the electromagnetic mechanic project:

All replies (11)

Quantum mechanics predicts Hawking radiation. Einstein's relativity doesn't.
Einstein identified that there was a second conceivable route to relativity theory, that involved full light-dragging (Hertz). Interestingly, Hertzian relativity does seem to predict Hawking radiation, as its redder Newtonian equations generate softer "relative" horizons rather than the "hard", "absolute" event horizons of Schwarzschild and Wheeler.
So maybe Einstein's is simply the wrong theory of relativity.
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Stam Nicolis
University of Tours
Both, in the sense that global Lorentz invariance-in the absence of gravity-and local Lorentz invariance-in the presence of gravity-are exact symmetries and quantum mechanics, in the sense that the probability distribution of a system, subject to quantum fluctuations, can be obtained in a well-defined way, once the space of states has been identified.
Quantum mechanics doesn't predict Hawking radiation-because the space of states of a gravitational system, in general, isn't known, due to the appearance of spacetime singularities, which the semi-classical approximation, that implies Hawking radiation, doesn't resolve. What exactly is Hwking radiation, beyond the semi-classical approximation, remains to be understood. A more robust prediction of quantum mechanics, in the presence of gravity, is that black holes, when probed by quantum matter, have finite entropy (the Bekenstein-Hawking entropy), for which the degrees of freedom that can account for it have been identified, in certain cases, where the space of states can be found, cf.
There are many issues, nonetheless, that remain to be understood, pertaining to quantum gravity.
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Juan Weisz
formerly conicet and universidad nacional del litoral
If its about GR, then i understand QM much better.
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George Soli
Integrated Detector Systems
There is a tradeoff. If 95% of all the energy in the universe is due to stochastic fluctuations of spacetime, caused by "a fundamental breakdown in predictability", then gravity is classical general relativity, quantum gravity does not exist, dark matter effects are entropic, and emergent classical gravity is asymptotically free because stochastic white noise vanishes at short distances.
Jonathan Oppenheim and Andrea Russo, “Anomalous contribution to galactic rotation curves due to stochastic spacetime” 1 May 2024, https://arxiv.org/abs/2402.19459v2
Einstein's special relativity is a cornerstone for quantum mechanics to be an exact and successful physical theory,and without it,quantum mechanics becomes non-relativistic and fails to explain a lot of major real aspects such as spin ,pair production,high energy physics, and even the spectrum of the hydrogen's atom, and the list goes on. Following Günther, there is no way to prove that special relativity is wrong,and thus quantum mechanics without Einstein's relativity is a failure.
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André Michaud
Service de Recherche Pédagogique SRP Inc
Both are inexact.
Special Relativity theory because the community chose to ignore the experimentally confirmed electromagnetic behavior of electrons as measured with the Kaufmann experiments and confirmed by all leading physicist of the time:
"Herr Kaufmann has determined the relation between [electric and magnetic deflection] of 𝛽-rays with admirable care. ... Using an independent method, Herr Planck obtained results which fully agree with Kaufmann. ... It is further to be noted that the theories of Abraham and Bucherer yield curves which fit the observed curve considerably better than the curve obtained from relativity theory. However, in my opinion, these theories should be ascribed a rather small probability because their basic postulates concerning the mass of the moving electron are not made plausible by theoretical systems which encompass wider complexes and phenomena."Albert Einstein (1907)
"Special Relativity killed the classical dream of using the energy-momentum-velocity relations of a particle as a means of probing the dynamic origin of its mass. The relations are purely kinematic. The classical picture of a particle as a finite little sphere is also gone for good. Quantum field theory has taught us that particles nevertheless have structure, arising from quantum fluctuations. Recently, unified field theories have taught us that the mass of the electron is certainly not purely electromagnetic in nature. But we still do not know what causes the electron to weigh." Abraham Pais (1982)
In Pais, Abraham (2008) Subtle is the Lord: The Science and the Life of Albert Einstein. Oxford University Press. 2008. p. 159.
Quantum mechanics because it was historically grounded on a wrong frequency of the energy induced at the Bohr radius of the hydrogen atom as calculated by de Broglie, due to the neglect by the community of referencing in textbooks the Kaufmann discovery made 20 years earlier:
Sergey Shevchenko
Institute of Physics, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine
The thread question and the introduction in
“…Which is more exact, quantum mechanics or relativity?... Quantum mechanics because the statistics. Relativity is more theoretical…”.
- look as are rather vague wordings. The real criteria for a theory to be really scientific one are, first of all [more see SS post page 29 in https://www.researchgate.net/post/What-criteria-do-you-have-in-mind-while-characterizing-a-scientific-theory#view=66676972acb8f78a2601bd55/37/36/35/34/35/34/33/32/31/30/29], is – with what extent of adequacy to the objective reality the theory describes and predicts what exists and happens in studied objects/systems; physical theories describes and predicts what exists and happen in fundamental for humans system “Matter”. Including in Matter objectively everything exists and happens only completely “exactly” – with what precision a physical theory works.
That doesn’t depend on – theory describes some random or rigorously determined objects/events/effects/processes. Say, the mathematical probability theory is completely “exact” science, despite that it relates to some principally random things/ “statistics”.
The same is in QM. All what is necessary in this theory is to describe/predict maximally exactly the probabilistic dependences/equations and the parameters of the dependences, that describe behavior of QM objects, etc.; really till now – equations for Ψ-functions the objects, etc., of particles, atoms, etc., when they are free and when compose some coupled by some fundamental Nature forces systems.
So, since really adequate to the reality theories are, nonetheless, principally based on experimental data about key universal parameters, say, about strengths/charges of fundamental Forces , the precision – and sometimes adequacy, though, of a theory is principally limited by experimental errors of the parameter’s values.
That is another thing, that all theories are based also on postulates, that are interpretations of experimental data, and when some interpretations are wrong, the theories logically inevitably really are wrong as well.
Physics yet in last 1800s was developed up to level, when for further development it was necessary to define really scientifically what are really fundamental phenomena/notions, first of all in this case “Matter”, “Consciousness”, “Space”, “Time”, “Energy”, “Information”, which were, and are till now, in the mainstream philosophy and sciences, including physics, fundamentally completely transcendent/uncertain/irrational,
- including so really everything in Matter, i.e. “particles”, “fundamental Nature forces” – and so “fields”, etc., is/are fundamentally completely transcendent/uncertain/irrational as well.
That above in Matter so are introduced in physical theories as defined in their postulates, which so in most cases really are completely transcendent assertions, which have to the reality rather strange relation. In Relativity that are, say, postulates that there is no absolute Matter’s spacetime and that all inertial reference frames are absolutely equivalent; that so exist mystic “space contraction” and “time dilation”, both of which, and not only in Relativity though, really fundamentally cannot exist; in QFTs some mystic virtual particles by some mystic way quite non-virtually act on real particles, etc. In Relativity there is no antiparticles – which really exist, in QETs it is postulated that antiparticles move back in time, what is fundamentally impossible. Etc., in the mainstream physics there are numerous other examples when really complete mystic is claimed as something scientific – and even postulated fundamental - facts.
The post is rather long, so now
Cheers
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Branko V. Mišković
Independent scientist
Starting by the absurd postulates, the relativity terminates by more absurd conclusions. On the other hand, quantum mechanics is a collection of the absurd postulates, not related to, or even contradictory to each other.
Juan Weisz
formerly conicet and universidad nacional del litoral
Issam
I would not say it that way.
Most situations of interest have it that speed is way less than c.
Dirac theory has its further predictions,
but also further paradoxes/problems.
Juan Weisz
formerly conicet and universidad nacional del litoral
The only way to see QM correct or not is predictive in experiments.
I think you cannot cite supposed historical mistakes stemming from early history as relevant today.
André Michaud
Service de Recherche Pédagogique SRP Inc
Actually, both are self-consistent, but inexact in the same manner, because both were established without taking into account the electromagnetic properties of the electron that were observed from the data collected by Walter Kaufmann during his experiments of the early years of the 1900's:
Explained with full historical references in this final paper of the electromagnetic mechanic project:

Similar questions and discussions

【NO.39】Doubts about General Relativity (4) - Who should determine the spacetime metrics of matter itself?
Discussion
29 replies
  • Chian FanChian Fan
General Relativity field equations [1]:
Gµν = G*Tµν...... (EQ.1).
It is a relation between the matter field (energy-momentum field) Tµν and the spacetime field Gµν, where the gravitational constant G is the conversion factor between the dimensions [2].Einstein constructed this relation without explaining why the spacetime field and the matter field are in such a way, but rather assumed that nine times out of ten, they would be in such a way. He also did not explain why the spacetime field Gµν is described by curvature and not by some other parameter. Obviously, we must find the exact physical relationship between them, i.e., why Tµν must correspond to Gµν, in order to ensure that the field equations are ultimately correct.
We know that matter cannot be a point particle, it must have a scale, and matter cannot be a solid particle, it must be some kind of field. The fact that matter has a scale means that it has to occupy space-time; the fact that matter is a field means that it is mixed with space-time, i.e., matter contains space-time. So, when applying Einstein's field equations, how is matter's own spacetime defined? Does it change its own spacetime? If its own energy-momentum and structure have already determined its own spacetime, should the way it determines its own spacetime be the same as the way it determines the external spacetime? If it is the same, does it mean that the spacetime field is actually a concomitant of the matter field?
If one were to consider a gravitational wave, one could think of it as a fluctuating spacetime field that propagates independently of the material source after it has been disconnected from it. They have decoupled from each other and no longer continue to conform to the field equations (EQ.1). Although gravitational waves are the product of a source, the loss of that source prevents us from finding another specific source for it to match it through the equation (EQ.1). Just as after an electron accelerates, the relationship between the radiated electromagnetic wave and the electron is no longer maintained. Does this indicate the independence of spacetime field energies?
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Related questions
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References
[1] Grøn, Ø., & Hervik, S. (2007). Einstein's Field Equations. In Einstein's General Theory of Relativity: With Modern Applications in Cosmology (pp. 179-194). Springer New York. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-0-387-69200-5_8
Is gravity fundamentally related to the electromagnetic force?
Discussion
15 replies
  • John A. MackenJohn A. Macken
Gravity is often considered a pseudo-force that is associated with the geometric curvature of spacetime. The electromagnetic force is considered a gauge force transferred by virtual photon messenger particles. Gauge theories are field theories that have the property of gauge invariance. These two mechanisms appear to be completely different.
However, this is a discussion question, and I will attempt to prove these two forces are closely related. The referenced preprint below presents a model of the universe based entirely on waves. An electron and other fermions are modeled as rotating soliton waves that exist in the sonic medium of oscillating spacetime. This model predicts that the electron’s electrical charge and its gravitational curvature are both the result of an electron’s wave properties interacting with the medium of oscillating spacetime.
When these forces are viewed as wave effects, predictions are made that these two forces should merge at the wave limit. The maximum charge that a wave-based particle can produce is Planck charge (qp) and the maximum mass a wave-based particle can produce is Planck mass (mp). The prediction is that the electrostatic force between two Planck charges (Fqp) equals the gravitational force magnitude between two Planck masses (FGp). At arbitrary separation distance r, the force magnitude is Fqp= FGp = ħc/r2. This merging of these forces at the Planck limit can be turned into equations that show that the forces are also closely related even at the level of two electrons or between any other particles.
What do you think? Are these forces fundamentally different? Is gravity even a force?
Fundamental Physics is stuck in conceptual crisis and reached a dead end. What exactly is wrong with Fundamental Physics Research?
Discussion
318 replies
  • Gurcharn Singh SandhuGurcharn Singh Sandhu
Fundamental Physics Research is intended to explore the grand maze of the unknown. Throughout the last century, Physicists have occupied themselves with working out Quantum Mechanics, Relativity, Particle Physics, Astrophysics and Cosmology in all their implications. In the process, Fundamental Physics has absorbed mathematical ideas and notions of increasing sophistication and abstraction. The tragedy of the last century was the gradual shift in our focus from the physical reality to the abstract mathematical formulations, which are supposed to describe physical reality. We appear to have been steadily indoctrinated into believing that due to complexity of physical reality, we can not even demand deeper understanding and mental visualization of the basic phenomena in quantum mechanical world. Now we are stuck in plethora of unfounded Belief Systems which are hindering any real progress in Fundamental Physics Research. On the other hand, Applied Physics is supported by physical or experimental feedback as well as mental visualization. As such Applied Physics never gets stuck in abstract mathematical formulations or unfounded Belief Systems.
As a consequence, Fundamental Physics researchers have inadvertently adopted certain abstract mathematical concepts into their physical worldview. For example, the notions of virtual particles, exchange theory of interaction, probability density representing instantaneous particle location, spacetime curvature, Black Holes, Big Bang, metric expansion of Space, etc. are truly abstract mathematical concepts which have been erroneously adopted in our physical worldview as physical realities. Experimental proofs and validations of such physically unacceptable mathematical concepts are often claimed through erroneous interpretation of raw observations. Agreed that Fundamental Research does require a lot of mathematical support, but the end results of any complex mathematical processing must be applicable to the physical world and hence must come within the grasp of human mind and mental visualization.
Perhaps, it is a part of Human Nature that we find ourselves so prone to mass indoctrination by dominant vested interest groups in all fields. Our inherent capacity to use Logic and Reason gets restricted or diminished under such a state of mass indoctrination and we involuntarily join 'Group Thinking'. Fundamental Research is one such area where indoctrination of innocent students and mass hypnosis of general public is inhibiting the use of Reason and Logic for discarding erroneous beliefs like Black Holes, Big Bang, probability waves, spacetime curvature etc.
In my opinion, Fundamental Physics Research is currently plagued by three dominant syndromes.
(a) "Emperor's New Clothes" Syndrome.
Throughout the last century, Industrial development and technological advancements remained in the public limelight and won public acclaim. However, Fundamental Physics research being of somewhat abstract and slow, could not compete with engineering and technology for winning public limelight and appreciation. As such, Fundamental Physics researchers instinctively started adopting highly abstract but sensational models of Nature, that could attract public attention in wonder and amazement, to win higher public acclaim in comparison with technological advancements. The adoption of highly abstract and sensational models in Fundamental Physics research for gaining public limelight, represents "Emperor's New Clothes" Syndrome. This approach has been adopted by the mainstream Physics community and sensational models of Black Holes, gravitational waves, Big Bang, weird QM models, particle entanglement, metric expansion of space etc. all represent this syndrome. These highly illogical but sensational models of Nature have now got embedded in permanent Belief Systems of the Scientific Community.
(b) "Six Blind Men and the Elephant" Syndrome.
If we represent the Nature by the proverbial 'Elephant', then the popular tale of "Six Blind Men and the Elephant" aptly highlights the current state of Fundamental Physics research. The six blind men in the popular tale could be represented by the researchers in the fields of Astrophysics, Particle Physics, Quantum Physics, Relativity Physics, Gravitational Physics and Cosmology. Just as in the popular tale, all researchers are extremely busy in making appropriate observations and making most sophisticated models thereof to represent Nature - 'The Elephant'. Many of such models have won public applaud and even Nobel Prizes. However, making models from raw observations, without necessary physical insight, often leads to fallacious Belief systems that defy Logic and Reason. Prominent examples of Models in this category are - Black Holes, Big Bang, Gravitational Waves, Spacetime Curvature, Length Contraction, Time Dilation, Fields without medium, Exchange Theory of Interaction, Probability Density representing instantaneous electron location, Atomic Orbitals, Metric Expansion of Space, Quantum Gravity, Particle Entanglement, etc. etc.
(c) "A Frog in the Well" Syndrome.
In spite of tens of thousands of advanced research papers being published every year, there is hardly any perceptible advancement in Fundamental Physics. One reason is that under the current system of research dissemination, it is virtually impossible for any researcher to know about the research contributions of all other researchers. Second reason is that when a researcher develops a model of certain aspect of Nature, due to long mental association and efforts put in, the model tends to get embedded in one's permanent Belief System. Accordingly, each researcher will tend to develop a personal Belief system which will act as a Benchmark for evaluating the models or contributions of all other researchers. In the absence of any centralized or common research dissemination and evaluation system, the individual Belief systems will constitute a "A Frog in the Well" Syndrome, which is a great hinderance for any advancement in Fundamental Physics Research. Most independent researchers are likely to be affected by this syndrome.
Under the circumstances, even if a few researchers do put up valuable research contributions for advancement of Fundamental Physics, we cannot distinguish their voices from the background noise. In my opinion, one possible way to put the Fundamental Physics Research back on the Right Track, is to appoint an International Experts Panel for Research Evaluation, by co-opting experts from various specialist and multi-disciplinary fields. This Panel may Evaluate and Grade all published research papers that may be referred to it by various research bodies (like ResearchGate) and academic institutes. Only High Grade research papers may then be released to public media for wider dissemination.
Learned researchers are requested to give their considered opinion on the issue of "What exactly is wrong with Fundamental Physics Research?" and how to rectify the situation.

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