Discussion
Started 3rd May, 2023
  • Behandishan Baherevar Sanjesh Co.

Mathematics and the realized world

Apart from the mathematical systems that confirm human feelings and perceptive sensors, there are countless mathematical systems that do not confirm these sensors and our sensory data! A question arises, are the worlds that these mathematical systems evoke are real? So in this way, there are countless worlds that can be realized with their respective physics. Can multiple universes be concluded from this point of view?
Don't we see that only one of these possible worlds is felt by our body?! Why? Have we created mathematics to suit our feelings in the beginning?! And now, in modern physics and the maturation of our powers of understanding, we have created mathematical systems that fit our dreams about the world!? Which of these mathematical devices is actually true about the world and has been realized?! If all of them have come true! So there is no single and objective world and everyone experiences their own world! If only one of these mathematical systems has been realized, how is this system the best?!
If the worlds created by these countless mathematical systems are not real, why do they exist in the human mind?!
The last question is, does the tangibleness of some of these mathematical systems for human senses, and the intangibleness of most of them, indicate the separation of the observable and hidden worlds?!

Most recent answer

Reza Sanaye
Shiraz University of Medical Sciences
Please note that if people don't understand why world objectively seen behaves as it does, they will give you nothing but a mathematical representation of such behavior. And if an actual understanding is given, it is mocked at in the world of physics, due to the value of math having currently been raised above and beyond the value of the human mind.

Popular replies (1)

Stephen I. Ternyik
Private Entrepreneur
6 Recommendations

All replies (10)

Dear Seyed Mohammad Mousavi You're right on question. Unfortunately we accustomed for centuries to use this tool of manmade one dimension, static mathematic to blend it to nature that it is changing constantly in three dimensions. For same reason, all of our equations never settled perfectly. Newtons gravity, Einstein's , Maxwell, Lorenz...all misguided and not working. My theories on universe is mentioned this phenomenon. read my articles
regards
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Seyed Mohammad Mousavi
Behandishan Baherevar Sanjesh Co.
Dear Samuel
Thank you very much for the high accuracy of your opinion on my subject, I will send you my opinion about the things you said soon.
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Abdul Malek
Ph.D. Full Member Sigma Xi Retired Independent Researcher Montréal ,
Mathematics, like theology, mythology (like ancient Greek or Indian etc., ones), State, Capital etc., are alienated forms of human creations, which historically the ruling classes in a class society used as a ruling tool for their own class interest as the dialectical unity of the opposites and in general crippling universal development of humanity. An alienation is the creation of man for his own need of the time. But in the course of further developments, this creation goes out his control as if an alien entity coming from outside and like Frankenstein Monster sets itself to control its creator!
As for mathematics, the following passage from Frederick Engels is very instructive: "But it is not at all true that in pure mathematics the mind deals only with its own creations and imaginations. The concepts of number and form have not been derived from any source other than the world of reality. The ten fingers on which men learnt to count, that is, carry out the first arithmetical operation, may be anything else, but they are certainly not a free creation of the mind. Counting requires not only objects that can be counted, but also the ability to exclude all properties of the objects considered other than their number – and this ability is the product of a long historical evolution based on experience. Like the idea of number, so the idea of form is derived exclusively from the external world, and does not arise in the mind as a product of pure thought. … But in order to make it possible to investigate these forms and relations in their pure state, it is necessary to abstract them entirely from their content, to put the content aside as irrelevant; hence we get the point without dimensions, lines without breadth, and thickness, a and b and x and y, constants and variables; and only at the very end of all these do we reach for the first time the free creations and imaginations of the mind, that is to say imaginary magnitudes. Even the apparent derivation of mathematical magnitudes from each other does not prove their a priori origin, but only their rational interconnection.
… Like all other sciences, mathematics arose out of the need of man; from measurement of land and of the content of vessels, from computation of time & mechanics. But, as in every department of thought, at a certain stage of development the laws abstracted from the real world become divorced from the real world and are set over against it as something independent, as laws coming from outside to which the world has to conform. This took place in society and in the state, and in this way, and not otherwise, pure mathematics is subsequently applied to the world, although it is borrowed from this same world and only represents one section of its forms of interconnection – and it is only just precisely because of this that it can be applied at all”. Anti Dühring, International Publishers N.Y., p. 45-46 (1939).
3 Recommendations
Stephen I. Ternyik
Private Entrepreneur
6 Recommendations
Seyed Mohammad Mousavi
Behandishan Baherevar Sanjesh Co.
Thank you Stephen I. Ternyik;
Sergey Shevchenko
Institute of Physics of the National Academy of Science of Ukraine
“…Apart from the mathematical systems that confirm human feelings and perceptive sensors, there are countless mathematical systems that do not confirm these sensors and our sensory data! A question arises, are the worlds that these mathematical systems evoke are real? So in this way, there are countless worlds that can be realized with their respective physics. Can multiple universes be concluded from this point of view?….”
- to make some really scientific conclusion from the “point of view” above it is necessary before to understand scientifically at least what are “human”? , “human feelings”? “perceptive sensors”? – and “perception” at all?, though, “data”?, “mathematical systems”?, “worlds”?, and “universes?”.
All these questions cannot be answered in the mainstream philosophy and sciences, since in the mainstream all really fundamental phenomena/notions, first of all in this case “Matter”, “Consciousness”, “Space”, “Time”, “Energy”, “Information”, are fundamentally completely transcendent/uncertain/irrational,
- and really the mainstream doesn’t know – what is, say, that “feels and percepts”, and what is that is “felt and perfected”; etc.; and though a human feels and percepts by sensors and at analysis [first of all by using Logical Rules] what he feels,
- a human makes that completely instinctively having no any rational understanding – why that is so?– as that any living being does. The difference between a human and a bacterium when they, say, seek for a food, is only in that types of foods for humans and for bacteria are different, but both – bacteria and humans test signals of sensors, make inferences - is that [a sensor feels] a food or not, what is distance and on what angle a food is or can be, etc., – and use at this corresponding mathematics.
The fundamental phenomena/notions above can be, and are, rigorously scientifically defined only in framework of the philosophical 2007 Shevchenko-Tokarevsky’s “The Information as Absolute” conception, recent version of the basic paper see
- where it is rigorously proven that there exist nothing else than some informational patterns/systems of the patterns that are elements of the absolutely fundamental and absolutely infinite “Information” Set.
Including the phenomena/notions “Matter” and "Consciousness” become be scientifically defined – they both absolutely for sure are nothing else than some informational systems – elements of the Set;
- however, at that “Matter” and "Consciousness” are fundamentally different systems.
Matter is a rather simple rigorously logically organized system, which is based on a simple binary logics, and so Matter’s spacetime, where Matter exists and constantly changes has a rather small number of space dimensions, in its utmost universal scale it is fundamentally absolute, fundamentally flat, and fundamentally “Cartesian”, [5]4D spacetime with metrics (cτ,X,Y,Z,ct),
- while any consciousness, including humans’ one, is a system that fundamentally can, in principle, operate in any the Set’s space dimensions, including only partiallyby some unknown specific way in Matter’s space above, when she obtains information from practically completely material sensors and when the fundamentally non-material consciousness govern practically completely material body.
So, say, the humans’ consciousnesses product “mathematics” fundamentally doesn’t relate to Matter [in mainstream – “universe”, what is really too vague scientifically term] directly, however since Matter is based on the rigorous and fundamentally universal set of laws/links/constants, mathematics is an extremely effective tool at description and analysis of what really exists and happens in Matter.
But that’s all, from mathematics by no means some real “multiple universes” follow, including the tribal one; though in the Set infinite number of some huge elements can exist, which are described by mathematics.
Etc., more see the linked above paper; about the role of mathematics see also, say, SS posts in https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_are_the_roots_of_the_energy_operator_ih_t_and_the_momentum_operator_ih_x/3
Cheers
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André Michaud
Service de Recherche Pédagogique (SRP Inc)
You ask: "If the worlds created by these countless mathematical systems are not real, why do they exist in the human mind?!"
The reason is that mathematics is just "a human language" that we developed more and more since antiquity to analyze and measure the various processes of physical reality.
But like all verbal languages, that can be used to verbally describe the various processes of physical reality but that can also be used to describe anything else, such as fictitious novels, fictitious science fiction stories, etc, mathematics can also be used to describe any arbitrary theory, each grounded on a different set of arbitrarily selected premises, axioms or assumptions.
The role of mathematics as a universally intelligible language, that must be learned like all verbal languages, is analyzed in Section 27 of this article, first published in 2019 and republished as Section 2.27 upon invitation as a book chapter in a specialized collection in 2020. All formal references are provided, including direct links to those that are available on the internet:
Best Regards, André
Sergey Shevchenko
Institute of Physics of the National Academy of Science of Ukraine
“…every individual rational being instantly formulates his/or her own mathematics in order to decently exist and survive in the reality (realized world of human society) in his/or her immediate milieu (environment) in any given space/time . . …..”
- to make the passage in the quote above be scientific one, it is necessary before/also to define/explain scientifically what is “individual rational being”?, what is “his/or her own mathematics”? why/how this mathematics provides to just “decently exist and survive in the reality”? – including specifically what is the reality”?, what is a “given space/time”? – and what is “space/time” at all?, etc..
The rigorously scientifically grounded answers to these questions see in the SS post above, and, of course, in the linked paper, where these questions are considered in detail.
Cheers
1 Recommendation
Reza Sanaye
Shiraz University of Medical Sciences
Please note that if people don't understand why world objectively seen behaves as it does, they will give you nothing but a mathematical representation of such behavior. And if an actual understanding is given, it is mocked at in the world of physics, due to the value of math having currently been raised above and beyond the value of the human mind.

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Were some scientists right in showing that the Lorentz Force brings to a paradox??
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Several scientists pointed out a paradoxical consequence of the application of the Lorentz Force as an addendum to Maxwell's equations in the form given by Heaviside. There is at least one case where the momentum is not conserved...
From the script of 1911 Einstein and Laub to Coleman, Shockley, Furry, Boyer, Babson, Reynolds, Bjorkquist, Griffiths, and Mansuripur till 2012 it was pointed out such an issue.
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Einstein A and Laub J "Über die im elektromagnetischenFelde aus ruhende Körper ausgeubten pondermotorischeKräfte"
Ann. Phys. 26 541 (1911)
--------------
Coleman, S. and Van Vleck, J. H. "Origin of Hidden Momentum Forces on Magnets"
Phys. Rev. 171 1370 (1968)
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Shockley W "Hidden linear momentum related to the α,E term for a Dirac-electron wave packet in an electric field"
Phys. Rev. Lett. 20 3434 (1968)
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Furry, W. H. "Examples of Momentum Distributions in the Electromagnetic Field and in Matter",
Am. J. Phys. 37 621 (1969)
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Boyer, T. H. "Concerning hidden momentum",
Am. J. Phys. 76 190 (2008)
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Babson, D., Reynolds, S. P., Bjorkquist, R. and Griffiths, D. J. "Hidden momentum, field momentum, and electromagnetic impulse",
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Mansuripur M. Trouble with the Lorentz law of force: incompatibility with special relativity and momentum conservation.
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No.9 Is the spin of an electron really spin?
Discussion
82 replies
  • Chian FanChian Fan
It is commonly believed that the concept of electron spin was first introduced by A.H. Compton (1920) when he studied magnetism. "May I then conclude that the electron itself, spinning like a tiny gyroscope, is probably the ultimate magnetic particle?"[1][2]; Uhlenbeck and Goudsmit (1926) thought so too [4], but did not know it at the time of their first paper (1925) [3]. However, Thomas (1927) considered Abraham (1903) as the first to propose the concept of spinning electron [5]. Compton did not mention Abraham in his paper "The magnetic electron" [2], probably because Abraham did not talk about the relationship between spin and magnetism [0]. In fact, it is Abraham's spin calculations that Uhlenbeck cites in his paper [4].
Gerlach, W. and O. Stern (1921-1922) did the famous experiment* on the existence of spin magnetic moments of electrons (even though this was not realized at the time [6]) and published several articles on it [7].
Pauli (1925) proposed the existence of a possible " two-valuedness " property of the electron [8], implying the spin property; Kronig (1925) proposed the concept of the spin of the electron to explain the magnetic moment before Uhlenbeck, G. E. and S. Goudsmit, which was strongly rejected by Pauli [9]. Uhlenbeck, G. E. and S. Goudsmit (1925) formally proposed the concept of spin[3], and after the English version was published[4], Kronig (1926), under the same title and in the same journals, questioned whether the speed of rotation of an electron with internal structure is superluminal**[10]. Later came the Thomas paper giving a beautiful explanation of the factor of 2 for spin-orbit coupling[11]. Since then, physics has considered spin as an intrinsic property that can be used to explain the anomalous Seeman effect.
The current state of physics is in many ways the situation: "When we do something in physics, after a while, there is a tendency to forget the overall meaning of what we are working on. The long range perspective fades into the background, and we may become blind to important a priori questions."[11]. With this in mind, C. N. Yang briefly reviewed how spin became a part of physics. For spin, he summarized several important issues: The concept of spin is both an intriguing and extremely difficult one. Fundamentally it is related to three aspects of physics. The first is the classical concept of rotation; the second is the quantization of angular momentum; the third is special relativity. All of these played essential roles in the early understanding of the concept of spin, but that was not so clearly appreciated at the time [11].
Speaking about the understanding of spin, Thomas said [5]: "I think we must look towards the general relativity theory for an adequate solution of the problem of the "structure of the electron" ; if indeed this phrase has any meaning at all and if it can be possible to do more than to say how an electron behaves in an external field. Yang said too: "And most important, we do not yet have a general relativistic theory of the spinning electron. I for one suspect that the spin and general relativity are deeply entangled in a subtle way that we do not now understand [11]. I believe that all unified theories must take this into account.
What exactly is spin, F. J. Belinfante argued that it is a circular energy flow [12][15] and that spin is related to the structure of the internal wave field of the electron. A comparison between calculations of angular momentum in the Dirac and electromagnetic fields shows that the spin of the electron is entirely analogous to the angular momentum carried by a classical circularly polarized wave [13]. The electron is a photon with toroidal topology [16]. At the earliest, A. Lorentz also used to think so based on experimental analysis. etc.
Our questions are:
1) Is the spin of an electron really spin? If spin has classical meaning, what should be rotating and obeying the Special Relativity?
2) What should be the structure of the electron that can cause spin quantization and can be not proportional to charge and mass?
3) If spin must be associated with General Relativity, must we consider the relationship between the energy flow of the spin and the gravitational field energy?
------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
* It is an unexpectedly interesting story about how their experimental results were found. See the literature [17].
** Such a situation occurs many times in the history of physics, where the questioned and doubted papers are published in the same journal under the same title. For example, the debate between Einstein and Bohr, the EPR papers [18] and [19], the debate between Wilson and Saha on magnetic monopoles [20] and [21], etc.
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Reference:
[0] Abraham, M. (1902). "Principles of the Dynamics of the Electron (Translated by D. H. Delphenich)." Physikalische Zeitschrift 4(1b): 57-62.
[1] Compton, A. H. and O. Rognley (1920). "Is the Atom the Ultimate Magnetic Particle?" Physical Review 16(5): 464-476.
[2] Compton, A. H. (1921). "The magnetic electron." Journal of the Franklin Institute 192(2): 145-155.
[3] Uhlenbeck, G. E., and Samuel Goudsmit. (1925). "Ersetzung der Hypothese vom unmechanischen Zwang durch eine Forderung bezüglich des inneren Verhaltens jedes einzelnen Elektrons." Die Naturwissenschaften 13.47 (1925): 953-954.
[4] Uhlenbeck, G. E. and S. Goudsmit (1926). "Spinning Electrons and the Structure of Spectra." Nature 117(2938): 264-265.
[5] Thomas, L. H. (1927). "The kinematics of an electron with an axis." The London, Edinburgh, and Dublin Philosophical Magazine and Journal of Science 3(13): 1-22.
[6] Schmidt-Böcking, H., L. Schmidt, H. J. Lüdde, W. Trageser, A. Templeton and T. Sauer (2016). "The Stern-Gerlach experiment revisited." The European Physical Journal H 41(4): 327-364.
[7] Gerlach, W. and O. Stern. (1922). "Der experimentelle Nachweis der Richtungsquantelung im Magnetfeld. " Zeitschrift f¨ur Physik 9: 349-352.
[8] Pauli, W. (1925). "Über den Einfluß der Geschwindigkeitsabhängigkeit der Elektronenmasse auf den Zeemaneffekt." Zeitschrift für Physik 31(1): 373-385.
[9] Stöhr, J. and H. C. Siegmann (2006). "Magnetism"(磁学), 高等教育出版社.
[10] Kronig, R. D. L. (1926). "Spinning Electrons and the Structure of Spectra." Nature 117(2946): 550-550.
[11] Yang, C. N. (1983). "The spin". AIP Conference Proceedings, American Institute of Physics.
[12] Belinfante, F. J. (1940). "On the current and the density of the electric charge, the energy, the linear momentum and the angular momentum of arbitrary fields." Physica 7(5): 449-474.
[13] Ohanian, H. C. (1986). "What is spin?" American Journal of Physics 54(6): 500-505. 电子的自旋与内部波场结构有关。
[14] Parson, A. L. (1915). Smithsonian Misc. Collections.
[15] Pavšič, M., E. Recami, W. A. Rodrigues, G. D. Maccarrone, F. Raciti and G. Salesi (1993). "Spin and electron structure." Physics Letters B 318(3): 481-488.
[16] Williamson, J. and M. Van der Mark (1997). Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology. Annales de la Fondation Louis de Broglie, Fondation Louis de Broglie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[17] Friedrich, B. and D. Herschbach (2003). "Stern and Gerlach: How a bad cigar helped reorient atomic physics." Physics Today 56(12): 53-59.
[18] Bohr, N. (1935). "Can quantum-mechanical description of physical reality be considered complete?" Physical review 48(8): 696.
[19] Einstein, A., B. Podolsky and N. Rosen (1935). "Can quantum-mechanical description of physical reality be considered complete?" Physical review 47(10): 777.
[20] Wilson, H. (1949). "Note on Dirac's theory of magnetic poles." Physical Review 75(2): 309.
[21] Saha, M. (1949). "Note on Dirac's theory of magnetic poles." Physical Review 75(12): 1968.

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