Shiraz University of Medical Sciences

Discussion

Started 3rd May, 2023

# Mathematics and the realized world

Apart from the mathematical systems that confirm human feelings and perceptive sensors, there are countless mathematical systems that do not confirm these sensors and our sensory data! A question arises, are the worlds that these mathematical systems evoke are real? So in this way, there are countless worlds that can be realized with their respective physics. Can multiple universes be concluded from this point of view?

Don't we see that only one of these possible worlds is felt by our body?! Why? Have we created mathematics to suit our feelings in the beginning?! And now, in modern physics and the maturation of our powers of understanding, we have created mathematical systems that fit our dreams about the world!? Which of these mathematical devices is actually true about the world and has been realized?! If all of them have come true! So there is no single and objective world and everyone experiences their own world! If only one of these mathematical systems has been realized, how is this system the best?!

If the worlds created by these countless mathematical systems are not real, why do they exist in the human mind?!

The last question is, does the tangibleness of some of these mathematical systems for human senses, and the intangibleness of most of them, indicate the separation of the observable and hidden worlds?!

## Most recent answer

Please note that if people don't understand why world objectively seen behaves as it does, they will give you nothing but a mathematical representation of such behavior. And if an actual understanding is given, it is mocked at in the world of physics, due to the value of math having currently been raised above and beyond the value of the human mind.

## Popular replies (1)

Private Entrepreneur

This could be of interest to you Seyed Mohammad Mousavi

6 Recommendations

## All replies (10)

Dear Seyed Mohammad Mousavi You're right on question. Unfortunately we accustomed for centuries to use this tool of manmade one dimension, static mathematic to blend it to nature that it is changing constantly in three dimensions. For same reason, all of our equations never settled perfectly. Newtons gravity, Einstein's , Maxwell, Lorenz...all misguided and not working. My theories on universe is mentioned this phenomenon. read my articles

regards

5 Recommendations

Behandishan Baherevar Sanjesh Co.

Dear Samuel

Thank you very much for the high accuracy of your opinion on my subject, I will send you my opinion about the things you said soon.

2 Recommendations

Ph.D. Full Member Sigma Xi Retired Independent Researcher Montréal ,

Mathematics, like theology, mythology (like ancient Greek or Indian etc., ones), State, Capital etc., are alienated forms of human creations, which historically the ruling classes in a class society used as a ruling tool for their own class interest as the dialectical unity of the opposites and in general crippling universal development of humanity. An alienation is the creation of man for his own need of the time. But in the course of further developments, this creation goes out his control as if an alien entity coming from outside and like Frankenstein Monster sets itself to control its creator!

As for mathematics, the following passage from Frederick Engels is very instructive: "

*But it is not at all true that in pure mathematics the mind deals only with its own creations and imaginations. The concepts of number and form have not been derived from any source other than the world of reality. The ten fingers on which men learnt to count, that is, carry out the first arithmetical operation, may be anything else, but they are certainly not a free creation of the mind. Counting requires not only objects that can be counted, but also the ability to exclude all properties of the objects considered other than their number – and this ability is the product of a long historical evolution based on experience. Like the idea of number, so the idea of form is derived exclusively from the external world, and does not arise in the mind as a product of pure thought. … But in order to make it possible to investigate these forms and relations in their pure state, it is necessary to abstract them entirely from their content, to put the content aside as irrelevant; hence we get the point without dimensions, lines without breadth, and thickness, a and b and x and y, constants and variables; and only at the very end of all these do we reach for the first time the free creations and imaginations of the mind, that is to say imaginary magnitudes. Even the apparent derivation of mathematical magnitudes from each other does not prove their a priori origin, but only their rational interconnection.**… Like all other sciences, mathematics arose out of the need of man; from measurement of land and of the content of vessels, from computation of time & mechanics. But, as in every department of thought, at a*

*certain stage of development the laws abstracted from the real world become divorced from the real world and are set over against it as something independent, as laws coming from outside to which the world has to conform. This took place in society and in the state, and in this way, and not otherwise, pure mathematics is subsequently applied to the world, although it is borrowed from this same world and only represents one section of its forms of interconnection – and it is only just precisely because of this that it can be applied at all”.*Anti Dühring, International Publishers N.Y., p. 45-46 (1939).

3 Recommendations

Private Entrepreneur

This could be of interest to you Seyed Mohammad Mousavi

6 Recommendations

Institute of Physics of the National Academy of Science of Ukraine

“…

*Apart from the mathematical systems that confirm human feelings and perceptive sensors, there are countless mathematical systems that do not confirm these sensors and our sensory data! A question arises, are the worlds that these mathematical systems evoke are real? So in this way, there are countless worlds that can be realized with their respective physics. Can multiple universes be concluded from this point of view?…*.”- to make some really scientific conclusion from the “point of view” above it is necessary before to understand scientifically at least what are “human”? , “human feelings”? “perceptive sensors”? – and “perception” at all?, though, “data”?, “mathematical systems”?, “worlds”?, and “universes?”.

All these questions cannot be answered in the mainstream philosophy and sciences, since in the mainstream all really fundamental phenomena/notions, first of all in this case “Matter”, “Consciousness”, “Space”, “Time”, “Energy”, “Information”, are fundamentally completely transcendent/uncertain/irrational,

- and really the mainstream doesn’t know – what is, say, that “feels and percepts”, and what is that is “felt and perfected”; etc.; and though a human feels and percepts by sensors and at analysis [first of all by using Logical Rules] what he feels,

- a human

**makes that completely instinctively**having no any rational understanding – why that is so?– as that any living being does. The difference between a human and a bacterium when they, say, seek for a food, is only in that types of foods for humans and for bacteria are different, but both – bacteria and humans test signals of sensors, make inferences - is that [a sensor feels] a food or not, what is distance and on what angle a food is or can be, etc., – and use at this corresponding mathematics.The fundamental phenomena/notions above can be, and are, rigorously scientifically defined only in framework of the philosophical 2007 Shevchenko-Tokarevsky’s “The Information as Absolute” conception, recent version of the basic paper see

- where it is rigorously proven that there exist nothing else than some informational patterns/systems of the patterns that are elements of the absolutely fundamental and absolutely infinite “Information” Set.

Including the phenomena/notions “Matter” and "Consciousness” become be scientifically defined – they both absolutely for sure are nothing else than some informational systems – elements of the Set;

- however, at that “Matter” and "Consciousness” are fundamentally different systems.

Matter is a rather simple rigorously logically organized system, which is based on a simple binary logics, and so Matter’s spacetime, where Matter exists and constantly changes has a rather small number of space dimensions, in its utmost universal scale it is fundamentally absolute, fundamentally flat, and fundamentally “Cartesian”, [5]4D spacetime with metrics (

*cτ,X,Y,Z,ct*),- while any consciousness, including humans’ one, is a system that fundamentally can, in principle, operate in any the Set’s space dimensions, including

**only partially**by some unknown specific way in Matter’s space above, when she obtains information from practically completely material sensors and when the fundamentally non-material consciousness govern practically completely material body.So, say, the humans’ consciousnesses product “mathematics” fundamentally doesn’t relate to Matter [in mainstream – “universe”, what is really too vague scientifically term] directly, however since Matter is based on the rigorous and fundamentally universal set of laws/links/constants, mathematics is an extremely effective tool at description and analysis of what really exists and happens in Matter.

But that’s all, from mathematics by no means some real “multiple universes” follow, including the tribal one; though in the Set infinite number of some huge elements can exist, which are described by mathematics.

Etc., more see the linked above paper; about the role of mathematics see also, say, SS posts in https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_are_the_roots_of_the_energy_operator_ih_t_and_the_momentum_operator_ih_x/3

Cheers

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Service de Recherche Pédagogique (SRP Inc)

You ask: "

*If the worlds created by these countless mathematical systems are not real, why do they exist in the human mind?!*"The reason is that mathematics is just "a human language" that we developed more and more since antiquity to analyze and measure the various processes of physical reality.

But like all verbal languages, that can be used to verbally describe the various processes of physical reality but that can also be used to describe anything else, such as fictitious novels, fictitious science fiction stories, etc, mathematics can also be used to describe any arbitrary theory, each grounded on a different set of arbitrarily selected premises, axioms or assumptions.

The role of mathematics as a universally intelligible language, that must be learned like all verbal languages, is analyzed in Section 27 of this article, first published in 2019 and republished as Section 2.27 upon invitation as a book chapter in a specialized collection in 2020. All formal references are provided, including direct links to those that are available on the internet:

Best Regards, André

Institute of Physics of the National Academy of Science of Ukraine

“…

*every individual rational being instantly formulates his/or her own mathematics in order to decently exist and survive in the reality (realized world of human society) in his/or her immediate milieu (environment) in any given space/time*. . …..”- to make the passage in the quote above be scientific one, it is necessary before/also to define/explain scientifically what is “individual rational being”?, what is “his/or her own mathematics”? why/how this mathematics provides to just “decently exist and survive in the reality”? – including specifically what is the reality”?, what is a “given space/time”? – and what is “space/time” at all?, etc..

The rigorously scientifically grounded answers to these questions see in the SS post above, and, of course, in the linked paper, where these questions are considered in detail.

Cheers

1 Recommendation

Shiraz University of Medical Sciences

Please note that if people don't understand why world objectively seen behaves as it does, they will give you nothing but a mathematical representation of such behavior. And if an actual understanding is given, it is mocked at in the world of physics, due to the value of math having currently been raised above and beyond the value of the human mind.

## Similar questions and discussions

Were some scientists right in showing that the Lorentz Force brings to a paradox??

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Several scientists pointed out a paradoxical consequence of the application of the Lorentz Force as an addendum to Maxwell's equations in the form given by Heaviside. There is at least one case where the momentum is not conserved...

From the script of 1911 Einstein and Laub to Coleman, Shockley, Furry, Boyer, Babson, Reynolds, Bjorkquist, Griffiths, and Mansuripur till 2012 it was pointed out such an issue.

-----------

Einstein A and Laub J "Über die im elektromagnetischenFelde aus ruhende Körper ausgeubten pondermotorischeKräfte"

Ann. Phys. 26 541 (1911)

--------------

Coleman, S. and Van Vleck, J. H.

*"Origin of Hidden Momentum Forces on Magnets"**Phys. Rev.*

**171**1370 (1968)

------------

Shockley W "Hidden linear momentum related to the α,E term for a Dirac-electron wave packet in an electric field"

Phys. Rev. Lett. 20 3434 (1968)

-------------

Furry, W. H.

*"Examples of Momentum Distributions in the Electromagnetic Field and in Matter"*,*Am. J. Phys.*

**37**621 (1969)

--------------

Boyer, T. H.

*"Concerning hidden momentum"*,*Am. J. Phys.*

**76**190 (2008)

---------------

Babson, D., Reynolds, S. P., Bjorkquist, R. and Griffiths, D. J.

*"Hidden momentum, field momentum, and electromagnetic impulse"*,*Am. J. Phys.*

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-----------------------------

Mansuripur M. Trouble with the Lorentz law of force: incompatibility with special relativity and momentum conservation.

Phys. Rev. Lett. 108 193901 (2012)

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