Question
Asked 6th Jul, 2022
  • Faculty of science rabat

How to reduce chlorinous odor in hypochlorous acid with essential oils?

Hello everyone. I need a little help here.
can we use essential oils to reduce chlorinous odor in a hypochlorous acid solution without decreasing free chlorine or pH value? any toughts and propositions are much appreciated

Most recent answer

2nd Dec, 2022
Phil Geis
GMQ
The poster noted he did not want to sacrifice av Cl.

All Answers (18)

7th Jul, 2022
Michel Héry
INRS
It is likely that the essential oils will be destroyed by chlorine, resulting (as long as there is an excess of chlorine) in the formation of chloramines, haloforms, aldehydes, etc. Some of these compounds (e.g. nitrogen trichloride) will have a high vapour pressure which will increase the "chlorine smell" you attribute to the hypochlorous acid solution. It is possible that the smell of essential oils will predominate, but this will not happen without a decrease in the amount of free chlorine.
These things are fairly well documented for swimming pools. Examples below:
1 Recommendation
7th Jul, 2022
Brahim Abraime
Faculty of science rabat
Thank you Michel Héry Sir for your reply. Indeed, the amount of free chlorine will decrease, we just do not want it to dramatically decrease (few hunderds ppm for example nothing more is OK). We need to add just a small amount of essential oil to either neutralize chlorine odor or have essential oil's odor.
"It is possible that the smell of essential oils will predominate, but this will not happen without a decrease in the amount of free chlorine" : could you ,Sir, give me some possible natural essential oils candidates that we could use in small amount?
7th Jul, 2022
Michel Héry
INRS
Sorry: not the slightest idea! I know some things about chlorine and its chemistry, but nothing about essential oils!
7th Jul, 2022
Brahim Abraime
Faculty of science rabat
Thank you Sir for your reply.. Much appreciated
20th Jul, 2022
Phil Geis
GMQ
What is your purpose? Hypochlorus acid will certainly react with essential oil components. Be aware of the safety of such chlorinated organic compounds.
1 Recommendation
20th Jul, 2022
Brahim Abraime
Faculty of science rabat
dear Dr Phil Geis
the purpose is to obtain the odor of the essential oil or to just neutralize the chlorine odor without touching the performance of HOCl
23rd Aug, 2022
David Lowenfels
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
There is a Japanese patent on this, they used eucalyptus and peppermint oil it seems. https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2018174136A1/en I just tried it and in small amounts dissolved in alcohol, it still has potent free chlorine. However cross the line and add too much and the HOCl is ruined. As others have mentioned, organochlorine chemicals are potentially unsafe, doesn't seem like a great idea. Hypochlorous odor will dissipate quickly, if it is not actually hypochlorite... check the pH.
1 Recommendation
23rd Aug, 2022
Brahim Abraime
Faculty of science rabat
Dear Mr David
Yes indeed I saw the patent however the addition of alcohol is what I did not want that is why this is not working for us
15th Nov, 2022
David Lowenfels
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
You will certainly need a solvent or emulsifier for any essential oil to dissolve in water. Salt can potentially replace alcohol if you add enough, according to readings on making essential oil aroma sprays. The answer of which oils to use is already in the Japanese patent.
However, properly acidified hypochlorous smells clean and fresh (more like swimming pool than bleach), and evaporates quickly. Why bother covering it up with chlorinated terpenes which will probably smell weird (not like pure oils) and have a questionable safety profile?
15th Nov, 2022
Phil Geis
GMQ
The reduction in odor is likely due to chlorination of essential oil constituents. Why are you using hypochlorite? As biocide pH should be ~6.5. Are you measuring av Cl ?
1 Recommendation
29th Nov, 2022
Michael Winter
Team Winter Kompetenztraining
There is an otc mouthspray in Europe, containing Aqua, Sodium Chloride, Hypochlorous Acid, Eucalyptus Globulus Leaf / Twig Oil.
It was successfully tested against various germs and SARS-CoV 2 in vitro.
It is being sold under the brand name Salopur.
30th Nov, 2022
Phil Geis
GMQ
Is av Cl stable?
30th Nov, 2022
Michael Winter
Team Winter Kompetenztraining
I have no further technical details on this product, but it has been there for a while and is seemingly well received on the market.
30th Nov, 2022
Phil Geis
GMQ
The market has no idea what its efficacy may be.
30th Nov, 2022
Michael Winter
Team Winter Kompetenztraining
Obviously it also adds complexity and possible problems if one adds additional variables to an equation. But at least there is a commercially available solution using HOCl & Eucalyptus oil, so it might be interesting to look that way for a possible answer.
1st Dec, 2022
Phil Geis
GMQ
Suggest you look for the regulatory aspects re. efficacy. Market presence per se means nothing - consumers have no way to evaluate the efficacy claim and typically use secondary signals such as odor.
IN US with would be EPA registration. Suggest you also search for the SDS info - esp. the pH. Should be between 6-7.
1st Dec, 2022
Michael Winter
Team Winter Kompetenztraining
I agree mostly, but the original question was actually about odor.
Questioner did not specify the desired effect of the resulting solution.
2nd Dec, 2022
Phil Geis
GMQ
The poster noted he did not want to sacrifice av Cl.

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After 20 years of "polyvagal" hypotheses, is there any direct evidence for the first 3 premises that form the foundation of the polyvagal conjectures?
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  • Paul GrossmanPaul Grossman
Premise 1: Neurogenic bradycardia and RSA are mediated by different branches of the vagus and need not respond in concert.
Premise 2: Neurogenic bradycardia associated with orienting is a phylogenetic vestigial relic of the reptilian brain and is mediated by the dorsal motor nucleus (DMNX).
Premise 3: Withdrawal of cardiac vagal tone through Nucleus Ambiguus (NA) mechanisms is a mammalian adaptation to select novelty in the environment while coping with the need to maintain metabolic output and continuous social communication.
(From Porges SW (2013) Polvagal Theory. NY: Norton)
The current evolutionary vagal evidence indicates that neither Premises 2 nor 3 are accurate. Also 1) there is a confluence of evidence regarding Premise 1 showing that the DMNX  may only manifest vagal effects upon heart rate under conditions of severe physiological respiratory distress (and even this is not very well documented), 2) Porges provides  merely very indirect findings to support his hypothesis (and his Figure 2.3 of  the time course of putative DMNX-stimulated bradycardia in a single anesthetized rabbit shows much too rapid onset and offset for the heart rate drop to be a response of the unmyelinated DMNX vagal fibers [which should have a much more gradual onset and offset than shown because slow conduction time of these fibers prevent sudden changes]), and 3) no mention is made by Porges of earlier findings that indicate that the DMNX is not implicated in normal vagal control of heart rate.
Nevertheless, perhaps there are strands of direct evidence of which I am unaware? In any case, polvagal conjectures have become very popular in psychology, psychophysiology and therapy literature. It seems, therefore, high time to critically assess the value of Stephen Porges' ideas in this area.

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